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View Poll Results: Is the season lost already?
Yes 176 95.14%
No 6 3.24%
No, because I can still get churros at the ballpark. 3 1.62%
Voters: 185. You may not vote on this poll

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  #91  
Old 06-17-2013, 08:24 PM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Not out of the top ranked farm system it isn't. Heck we've had better returns out of our lower ranked farm systems.
What it shows is BA misevaluated.
You clearly don't follow enough baseball outside of the Sox
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  #92  
Old 06-17-2013, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
You clearly don't follow enough baseball outside of the Sox
Again, another barb at someone. Whatever.

Take the top farm system in baseball and tell them that this what they'll get out of their top 10 or so prospects: a good fielding 3rd baseman with injury problems who has fair power and poor average and lasts less than a decade; a starter who was average for 6 or so years, with 1 or 2 really good years; and 2 middle relievers (maybe there are 2 in there - Ginter and Rausch) and they'd be aghast.
If THAT is a good return the best prospects from the best farm system, then they darn well would be a lot more willing to trade their top prospects than they are.

Put another way - you could trade all 10 of those players and they don't equal a Chris Sale.
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  #93  
Old 06-17-2013, 08:52 PM
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Buehrle was only average except for one or two years? I disagree with that.
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  #94  
Old 06-17-2013, 08:59 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by Brian26 View Post
Buehrle was only average except for one or two years? I disagree with that.
I'm talking Garland. MB wasn't on Doub's 2000 list (or I completely missed him) - but he probably should have been, I guess. He was a late call-up I think. That certainly changes the return.
But I still think some of these farm systems put out a heck of a lot more talent than that...heck we've turned out more talent than that in some years.
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  #95  
Old 06-17-2013, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Again, another barb at someone. Whatever.

Take the top farm system in baseball and tell them that this what they'll get out of their top 10 or so prospects: a good fielding 3rd baseman with injury problems who has fair power and poor average and lasts less than a decade; a starter who was average for 6 or so years, with 1 or 2 really good years; and 2 middle relievers (maybe there are 2 in there - Ginter and Rausch) and they'd be aghast.
If THAT is a good return the best prospects from the best farm system, then they darn well would be a lot more willing to trade their top prospects than they are.

Put another way - you could trade all 10 of those players and they don't equal a Chris Sale.
Dude, even if you look at the Top 5 prospects in all of baseball, even those guys generally completely bust something like 1/3 of the time. If you honestly think good prospects always turn into good players, you're just not paying attention to the other 29 teams in the league.
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  #96  
Old 06-17-2013, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
I'm talking Garland. MB wasn't on Doub's 2000 list (or I completely missed him) - but he probably should have been, I guess. He was a late call-up I think. That certainly changes the return.
But I still think some of these farm systems put out a heck of a lot more talent than that...heck we've turned out more talent than that in some years.
My fault. I didnt catch the original reference.
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  #97  
Old 06-17-2013, 11:09 PM
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Mark Buehrle. Joe Crede. Aaron Rowand. Jon Garland. All of them spent the majority of their minor league development in the White Sox system while KW was Director of Player Development. Do any of those names ring a bell, pal???
Your argument is that Buehrle, Crede, Rowand, and Garland were home grown talent that formed a "core".... and that "core" was mainly responsible for 05.. There's no way to prove that's true and no way to prove its not true, so basically it's meaningless to even bring that up unless you want to bolster whatever point it is about how awesome KW was at bringing in and developing talent..
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  #98  
Old 06-17-2013, 11:16 PM
amsteel amsteel is offline
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It's going to be a lost five years.
Nah, we'll be back competing for second place in 2015.
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  #99  
Old 06-18-2013, 07:19 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Every GM has hits and misses. Thankfully KW had a period where he had lots of hits and few misses, resulting in a World Series title.
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  #100  
Old 06-18-2013, 07:54 AM
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Yeah, and he also "scouted" AJ Pierzynski, Jermaine Dye, Tadahito Iguchi, Scott Podsednik, Juan Uribe, and Bobby Jenks.

So yeah, look, I still really don't care if you think KW should have been shown the door, I just think it's bull**** to list a guys failures without acknowledging that for every bad transaction there's at least 1 good one, as well. Which is actually a decent ratio for a GM, you know, if you pay attention to baseball at all.
Kenny Williams was a pretty decent GM at one point. I think he started buying into his own hype, making silly moves to outwit people.

I don't know for sure who's calling the shots now, but if it's Hahn he needs to be canned. The moves/decisions last offseason were probably the worst in the last few decades for our team.
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  #101  
Old 06-18-2013, 07:56 AM
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  #102  
Old 06-18-2013, 08:19 AM
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I'm told that the Dodgers want to move at least one of their 3 outfielders. Carl Crawford, Matt Kemp and Andre Ethier are available. I'm just wondering if one of them is going to playing on the White Sox this season. All 3 of those guys are making some serious money so I would think the Dodgers would have to pick up some of the money. Taking everything into account, I would think Andre Ethier would be the best fit for the White Sox. He's making less money than Kemp and Crawford and he hits from the left side. We need somebody in the middle of the lineup who can hit. I'm beginning to think you wouldn't have to give up much to get either of these 3 guys. Getting any of these players would seem to upgrade the team for this year and future seasons.

Last edited by Golden Sox; 06-18-2013 at 08:28 AM.
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  #103  
Old 06-18-2013, 08:24 AM
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I'm told that the Dodgers want to move at least one of their 3 outfielders. Carl Crawford, Matt Kemp and Andre Ethier are available. I'm just wondering if one of them is going to playing on the White Sox this season. All 3 of those guys are making some serious money so I would think the Dodgers would have to pick up some of the money. Taking everything into account, I would think Andre Ethier would be the best fit for the White Sox. He's younger and making less money than Kemp and Crawford.
I don't think anyone for big money that won't be in their prime 5+ years from now is in the plans.
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  #104  
Old 06-18-2013, 08:30 AM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is online now
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
The White Sox farm system was ranked #1 by Baseball America in 2000.

The 2000 Sox had 7 BA Top 100 Prospects; Wells, Garland, Myette, Rauch, Ginter, Borchard, Crede, and Wright.
Sorry- I just don't agree with you- 13 years ago a baseball publication ranked the farm system #1 due to guys like Myette, Ginter, Borchard and Wright- not the strongest argument.

What about the past 5 years of being ranked near the bottom?, etc
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  #105  
Old 06-18-2013, 09:08 AM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
The White Sox farm system was ranked #1 by Baseball America in 2000.

The 2000 Sox had 7 BA Top 100 Prospects; Wells, Garland, Myette, Rauch, Ginter, Borchard, Crede, and Wright.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Mark Buehrle. Joe Crede. Aaron Rowand. Jon Garland. All of them spent the majority of their minor league development in the White Sox system while KW was Director of Player Development. Do any of those names ring a bell, pal???
I agree. I think the discussion back and forth about this is splitting hairs. The way I see it, the Sox had a top ranked farm system in 2000. If people think that means nothing, the following 2005 players were already in the Sox organization by the end of 2000 or were acquired for players that were in our organization by 2000: Crede, Buehrle, Rowand, Garland (acquired as a prospect), Garcia (acquired for Sox prospects Olivo, Morse, and Reed). I don't care how Crede, Borchard, or Wright were ranked by BA, the above names helped this team win the World Series. Being a highly ranked farm system in 2000 mattered.

Also, don't forget that the Sox drafted Carlos Lee in 1994 and called him up in '99. In 2004, he was used to acquire another key 2005 player: Podsednik.

It's not that all these guys above were total superstars. It's that they were solid, valuable players. How many guys of this caliber have come out of the Sox system in the last 12 years? Maybe Sale and Reed are a sign that things have bottomed out and we're starting to gradually produce quality players again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
I think after 2008 KW was increasingly making moves out of desperation to remain competitive. Consequently, I don't think he put enough time into scouting his own prospects/players to trade away, or the players he acquired. He also increasingly used our system to develop players to trade, and emptied out the system to acquire veterans. This is not a value statement, just an observation.
Perhaps he was getting desperate because the talent from the farm system was running dry. One of KW's talents was flipping prospects for impact players. That doesn't work when you no longer have enough valuable prospects.

I don't agree with the notion that our farm system is bad now because it was emptied out to acquire veterans players. The biggest prospect we gave away was Gio Gonzalez....and that was more than 5 years ago now. We gave up Chris Young in 2006. Other than that, it's not like the majors are full above average players who were Sox farm system products that got traded away.
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