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View Poll Results: Is the season lost already?
Yes 176 95.14%
No 6 3.24%
No, because I can still get churros at the ballpark. 3 1.62%
Voters: 185. You may not vote on this poll

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  #76  
Old 06-17-2013, 04:33 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
What worries me....those haven't happened in many years. The Quentin trade was his last good one, but it wasn't a small trade, as we gave up one of our top prospects for him...in fact, that prospect ripped at least one against us in Houston over the weekend.
His fairly recent dumps of Edwin Jackson, Quentin and Santos yielded nothing.
I think after 2008 KW was increasingly making moves out of desperation to remain competitive. Consequently, I don't think he put enough time into scouting his own prospects/players to trade away, or the players he acquired. He also increasingly used our system to develop players to trade, and emptied out the system to acquire veterans. This is not a value statement, just an observation.
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  #77  
Old 06-17-2013, 04:44 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
I think after 2008 KW was increasingly making moves out of desperation to remain competitive. Consequently, I don't think he put enough time into scouting his own prospects/players to trade away, or the players he acquired. He also increasingly used our system to develop players to trade, and emptied out the system to acquire veterans. This is not a value statement, just an observation.
I think he as always far more concerned with what he was getting than what he was giving up. I don't necassarily think he cared about "winning" trades.
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Originally Posted by shoota
I'm not counting this homerun or his 3 RBI from today's game because of the game situation. I'm not counting his pinch hit solo homerun in a blowout win in Colorado. In my book, Crede has 2 less home runs than his statistics show, 4 less RBI, and one less walk (the one where he pinch hit for Uribe after coming in with a 3-0 count and taking one pitch).
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  #78  
Old 06-17-2013, 04:46 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Tragg:

JR fired Himes because he said on Chet Coppock's radio show that no one could get along with him. Have no idea if that's true or not since I don't know Larry.

There was also speculation which I've never been able to prove that JR was very upset with Himes when Larry refused to trade prospects for pitchers like Mike Scott during the stretch run in 1990. Torborg told me that JR called him in Minnesota to find on "what's going on" after the A's were able to get both Baines and Willie McGee at the deadline when the Sox were below them in the standings and had the first crack at them

As far as Torborg, read my interview with him. Schueler fired him basically because he wanted his own man loyal to him. Jeff was hired by Himes. I don't know if JR had to approve Jeff's firing or not.

Lip
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  #79  
Old 06-17-2013, 05:04 PM
captain54 captain54 is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
A) Who the **** cares what Hawk thinks about... anything, really

B) Most of those players went on to form the core of the 2005 team so, yeah, it does
you'd have to define "CORE" pal... you COULD say "CORE" were the players from trades with Scheuler inherited talent, or players inherited from the Scheuler era, like PK. But you won't because it won't fit your argument.
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  #80  
Old 06-17-2013, 06:21 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
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Originally Posted by captain54 View Post
you'd have to define "CORE" pal... you COULD say "CORE" were the players from trades with Scheuler inherited talent, or players inherited from the Scheuler era, like PK. But you won't because it won't fit your argument.
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  #81  
Old 06-17-2013, 06:47 PM
soltrain21 soltrain21 is offline
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It's going to be a lost five years.
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  #82  
Old 06-17-2013, 06:51 PM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
A) Who the **** cares what Hawk thinks about... anything, really

B) Most of those players went on to form the core of the 2005 team so, yeah, it does
2005 players drafted under KW leadership-

Joe Crede (1996)
Aaron Rowand (1998)
Mark Buehrle (1998)

KW's one other play off team- 2008:

Joe Crede (1996)
Mark Buehrle (1998)

I'm also not believing any hype on what a great "scout" KW was/is. He "scouted" Todd Ritchie, Billy Koch, Adam Dunn, Nick Swisher- all big duds with the White Sox and everyone one of them showed decline in the year before they came to the Sox (especially 2nd half of the year before they came over) as well as going mulitple seasons thinking Josh Fields, Jerry Owens, Brian Anderson and now Tyler Flowers were the answers to filling voids from departed veterans.

Always grateful for 2005- but he'd never be hired by another team as a GM- he rolled the dice and pulled off some big moves- but never really showed a systematic process for building an organization for the long haul.
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  #83  
Old 06-17-2013, 07:30 PM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post
What year?

He was in the role from 1995-2000- if he was "great" at minor league development- then we should have had a great minor leagues system by 1999 or 2000- looking at their rosters from that time period- there's really no home grown talent to point to (other than Buehrle)
The White Sox farm system was ranked #1 by Baseball America in 2000.

The 2000 Sox had 7 BA Top 100 Prospects; Wells, Garland, Myette, Rauch, Ginter, Borchard, Crede, and Wright.
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  #84  
Old 06-17-2013, 07:31 PM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Originally Posted by captain54 View Post
you'd have to define "CORE" pal... you COULD say "CORE" were the players from trades with Scheuler inherited talent, or players inherited from the Scheuler era, like PK. But you won't because it won't fit your argument.
Mark Buehrle. Joe Crede. Aaron Rowand. Jon Garland. All of them spent the majority of their minor league development in the White Sox system while KW was Director of Player Development. Do any of those names ring a bell, pal???
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  #85  
Old 06-17-2013, 07:39 PM
Dibbs Dibbs is offline
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This is the hardest Sox team to watch in my lifetime so far as a Sox fan. I can't stand this team and haven't watched a full game yet. I haven't even watched a full inning in over a month. I can't stand this team. Checking box scores is about the extent I will go.
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  #86  
Old 06-17-2013, 07:40 PM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Originally Posted by TomBradley72 View Post

I'm also not believing any hype on what a great "scout" KW was/is. He "scouted" Todd Ritchie, Billy Koch, Adam Dunn, Nick Swisher- all big duds with the White Sox and everyone one of them showed decline in the year before they came to the Sox (especially 2nd half of the year before they came over) as well as going mulitple seasons thinking Josh Fields, Jerry Owens, Brian Anderson and now Tyler Flowers were the answers to filling voids from departed veterans.
Yeah, and he also "scouted" AJ Pierzynski, Jermaine Dye, Tadahito Iguchi, Scott Podsednik, Juan Uribe, and Bobby Jenks.

So yeah, look, I still really don't care if you think KW should have been shown the door, I just think it's bull**** to list a guys failures without acknowledging that for every bad transaction there's at least 1 good one, as well. Which is actually a decent ratio for a GM, you know, if you pay attention to baseball at all.
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  #87  
Old 06-17-2013, 08:13 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
The White Sox farm system was ranked #1 by Baseball America in 2000.

The 2000 Sox had 7 BA Top 100 Prospects; Wells, Garland, Myette, Rauch, Ginter, Borchard, Crede, and Wright.
3 had decent major league careers. Not sure any reached an all-star game.
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  #88  
Old 06-17-2013, 08:17 PM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
3 had decent major league careers. Not sure any reached an all-star game.
Um yeah, that's just what happens with prospects. Even the very top ones fail pretty routinely. You're aware getting 3 good careers out of 7 is actually an insanely high success rate, right?

Here's the BA Top 10 Prospects for 2000:

1) Rick Ankiel, St. Louis
2) Pat Burrell, Philadelphia
3) Corey Patterson, Cubs
4) Vernon Wells, Toronto
5) Nick Johnson, Yankees
6) Ruben Mateo, Texas
7) Sean Burroughs, San Diego
8) Rafeal Furcal, Atlanta
9) Ryan Anderson, Seattle
10) John Patterson, Arizona

1 decent player out of the Top 10. 3 of them I can't even remember.

Last edited by doublem23; 06-17-2013 at 08:22 PM.
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  #89  
Old 06-17-2013, 08:21 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Um yeah, that's just what happens with prospects. Even the very top ones fail pretty routinely. You're aware getting 3 good careers out of 7 is actually an insanely high success rate, right?
Not out of the top ranked farm system it isn't. Heck we've had better returns out of our lower ranked farm systems.
What it shows is BA misevaluated.
Williams has a mixed record. But his record the last 5 years is a lot more bad than good in evaluating talent, making trades, etc.
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  #90  
Old 06-17-2013, 08:23 PM
HomeFish HomeFish is offline
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Much more worried that this is a lost decade. The old warhorses on the team are retiring, and I'm not sure there is anything there to replace them.

The Sox need to become much better at drafting and developing talent, and I don't see that happening yet. It can't happen overnight. It's frustrating to see teams like the Cardinals and Red Sox constantly pulling great young players out of nowhere.
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