Do you feel it is a lost season already?

[Moses_Scurry]

Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo

This analogy isn't perfect, but it's a useful illustration: This Sox team is roughly where the 87/88 Sox are.

Sale is McDowell. Beckham may finally be developing into a solid infield leader and hitter like Ventura. Reed is Thigpen. Carlos Sanchez, down on the farm, could be another young all-glove, zero power shortstop like Ozzie. Quintana and Santiago could be like Greg Hibbard and Eric King. Nate Jones could be Scott Radinsky.

Rios, Crain and Alexei might together net us in quantity the equivalent of what we got in quality for Harold Baines. Perhaps out of the prospects we acquire we nab a catcher or center fielder and a reliever who contribute next year. And we'll get salary relief from Paulie and Floyd's expiring contracts, which can be used to sign two stopgap outfielders and a catcher.

No, we haven't just drafted another Frank Thomas. But maybe we get a really solid hitter with our 2014 first round draft pick, and, after a lousy 2014, we draft the next Alex Fernandez in 2015.

By not trading away our young starting pitching, we could be rebounding by 2015 and competing by 2016.

I listened to almost every game of the '87 season on WMAQ (I was 14 years old). That was such a depressing team.

[TomBradley72]

Originally Posted by Moses_Scurry

I listened to almost every game of the '87 season on WMAQ (I was 14 years old). That was such a depressing team.

And that team had Baines, Calderon, Fisk, Walker and Guillen.

2013 Sox are on pace to win 69 games- the '87 team won 77.

2013 White Sox are on track for the 100th (out of 113) ranked winning percentage in the history of the franchise. Just ahead of the 1968, 1969 White Sox, just behind the 1989 White Sox.

[kittle42]

Originally Posted by Hitmen77

I've said it before in other threads, but this is the least interesting Sox team for me since the 1986-88 era when the Sox wore the Campbell Soup C/Einhorn E caps and ownership was planning for St. Petersburg.

Back then, when our starters were like Reuss, Hibbard, and DeLeon, I was 10-12 years old and used to think the Sox had a chance when they were 15 out with 16 games left. I think some folks here still think like that.

[Tragg]

Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo

This analogy isn't perfect, but it's a useful illustration: This Sox team is roughly where the 87/88 Sox are.

Sale is McDowell. Beckham may finally be developing into a solid infield leader and hitter like Ventura. Reed is Thigpen. Carlos Sanchez, down on the farm, could be another young all-glove, zero power shortstop like Ozzie. Quintana and Santiago could be like Greg Hibbard and Eric King. Nate Jones could be Scott Radinsky.

Rios, Crain and Alexei might together net us in quantity the equivalent of what we got in quality for Harold Baines. Perhaps out of the prospects we acquire we nab a catcher or center fielder and a reliever who contribute next year. And we'll get salary relief from Paulie and Floyd's expiring contracts, which can be used to sign two stopgap outfielders and a catcher.

No, we haven't just drafted another Frank Thomas. But maybe we get a really solid hitter with our 2014 first round draft pick, and, after a lousy 2014, we draft the next Alex Fernandez in 2015.

By not trading away our young starting pitching, we could be rebounding by 2015 and competing by 2016.

There are similarities but the one thing the Sox did in the late 1980s was execute some great trades. We need Peavy up and running to have some firepower do that. What we got for Bannister and Baines was incredibly important to our 1990s run. Hibbard and Melido Perez came from the Bannister trade. Sosa, Fletcher and Wilson Alvarez came from the Baines trade. We traded two players and got 5 starting players....would you take that this time around? In our dreams.
Just take your time, Hahn, and get the most out of these teams that you can.

Then there's Ivan Calderon. We made a great trade to get him, used him, and then flipped him (along with a decent middle reliever) for the great Tim Raines. Think we can pull that off this time around?

The key to that period was great, and I mean great, trading.
And for some reason, JR fired Larry Himes and Torborg and hired Scheduler and the mediocre Lamont.

[Frater Perdurabo]

Originally Posted by Tragg

There are similarities but the one thing the Sox did in the late 1980s was execute some great trades. We need Peavy up and running to have some firepower do that. What we got for Bannister and Baines was incredibly important to our 1990s run. Hibbard and Melido Perez came from the Bannister trade. Sosa, Fletcher and Wilson Alvarez came from the Baines trade. We traded two players and got 5 starting players....would you take that this time around? In our dreams.
Just take your time, Hahn, and get the most out of these teams that you can.

Then there's Ivan Calderon. We made a great trade to get him, used him, and then flipped him (along with a decent middle reliever) for the great Tim Raines. Think we can pull that off this time around?

The key to that period was great, and I mean great, trading.
And for some reason, JR fired Larry Himes and Torborg and hired Scheduler and the mediocre Lamont.

Good points on the trades. We also nailed four straight first round draft choices: McDowell, Ventura, Thomas and Fernandez.

Lets wait and see how Hahn's first few drafts go, and how his first trades go. He won't get as much for Rios and Peavy as Himes did for Baines and Bannister, but he also has Crain and Thornton to deal. Also, the Cell provides a greater revenue stream than old Comiskey Park did.

Hahn also has KW to do some scouting. Remember, KW was the guy who "won" under the radar trades and signings of Loaiza, Contreras, Uribe, AJ, Iguchi, Dye, Quentin, etc. And the minor league system, while under KW's direction, produced solid contributors like Rowand, Crede and Buehrle.

Therefore, I do not think the Sox are headed for a prolonged half-decade of losing.

[TomBradley72]

Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo

Good points on the trades. We also nailed four straight first round draft choices: McDowell, Ventura, Thomas and Fernandez.

Lets wait and see how Hahn's first few drafts go, and how his first trades go. He won't get as much for Rios and Peavy as Himes did for Baines and Bannister, but he also has Crain and Thornton to deal. Also, the Cell provides a greater revenue stream than old Comiskey Park did.

Hahn also has KW to do some scouting. Remember, KW was the guy who "won" under the radar trades and signings of Loaiza, Contreras, Uribe, AJ, Iguchi, Dye, Quentin, etc. And the minor league system, while under KW's direction, produced solid contributors like Rowand, Crede and Buehrle.

Therefore, I do not think the Sox are headed for a prolonged half-decade of losing.

KW oversaw the minors (in different roles) for about 20 years- those 3 are not evidence that he has any real talent at building a strong minor league system.

He was good at the "under the radar" trades- not just good a the "big" moves-like Wells, Ritchie, Koch, Swisher, Peavy, Dunn, etc.

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by TomBradley72

KW oversaw the minors (in different roles) for about 20 years- those 3 are not evidence that he has any real talent at building a strong minor league system.

The Sox had the #1 ranked minor league system in baseball while he was Director of Player Development.

[captain54]

Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo

Hahn also has KW to do some scouting. Remember, KW was the guy who "won" under the radar trades and signings of Loaiza, Contreras, Uribe, AJ, Iguchi, Dye, Quentin, etc. And the minor league system, while under KW's direction, produced solid contributors like Rowand, Crede and Buehrle.

Therefore, I do not think the Sox are headed for a prolonged half-decade of losing.

KW was also the guy who engineered the home run or nothing philosophy for the past number of years that got us into this mess, so I wouldn't be so quick to throw too many accolades around.. If you are gonna give him credit for the successes he gets slammed for the failures.. Of course I'm sure you'll bring up the stellar winning percentage vs the rest of the league during his tenure.

Comparing the late 80's teams to the 2013 Sox is apples vs oranges.. Back then, with 2 divisions, the Sox had some mighty competition with the A's and Twins Kirby Puckett teams... Today, shame on the Sox for competing in a division where the only real competition seems to be Detroit who practically gives away the division for the past few years...

Also shame on JR and the Sox brass for effectively putting a complete and total end to the 05 buzz.. The White Sox have the lowest average attendance of any major market franchise, at or near the bottom in fielding and offense..and are the 2nd worst team in the AL currently.. ahead of a team with 1/4 of the Sox payroll..

The alarming stats go on and on, but I won't put you or myself thru the misery... You're dreaming if you think the current ownership has any clue as to how to fix this.. I'm not saying I have any better idea, but I'm not charging people to watch a baseball team play good solid baseball and be seriously in the hunt for the playoffs in a weak division..

[captain54]

Originally Posted by doublem23

The Sox had the #1 ranked minor league system in baseball while he was Director of Player Development.

Boy, that's gonna put some "fannies in the seats" .. as Hawk would say.

[Tragg]

Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo

Hahn also has KW to do some scouting. Remember, KW was the guy who "won" under the radar trades and signings of Loaiza, Contreras, Uribe, AJ, Iguchi, Dye, Quentin, etc.

What worries me....those haven't happened in many years. The Quentin trade was his last good one, but it wasn't a small trade, as we gave up one of our top prospects for him...in fact, that prospect ripped at least one against us in Houston over the weekend.
His fairly recent dumps of Edwin Jackson, Quentin and Santos yielded nothing.

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by captain54

Boy, that's gonna put some "fannies in the seats" .. as Hawk would say.

A) Who the **** cares what Hawk thinks about... anything, really

B) Most of those players went on to form the core of the 2005 team so, yeah, it does

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by Tragg

What worries me....those haven't happened in many years. The Quentin trade was his last good one, but it wasn't a small trade, as we gave up one of our top prospects for him...in fact, that prospect ripped at least one against us in Houston over the weekend.
His fairly recent dumps of Edwin Jackson, Quentin and Santos yielded nothing.

He's also hitting .217. Calm down.

[TaylorStSox]

This idea that Kenny spent his tenure turning us into a power or nothing team is BS. First, the park has bad effect on singles hitters. Second, he tried to get both speedy lead off hitters and fundamentally sound veterans throughout his tenure. Pierre, Erstad, Kotsay, De Aza, Lofton, Rios etc. he wasn't all that successful, but understood the necessity. Power hitters in that era were a hell of a lot easier to find than speedsters. They probably still are, but I see that changing.

[Frater Perdurabo]

KW had flaws as a GM, certainly. I think his new job gives him an opportunity to do what he does well - scouting.

Both Swisher trades in particular hurt the Sox.

I can't blame management for Peavy's detached lat or his current injury, or Dunn's struggles. However, we would not have "needed" to trade for Peavy if we hadn't dealt Gio, nor signed Dunn if Swisher hadn't bombed and had to be shipped out, leaving us without a decent LH hitter.

I oppose the "loyalty over performance excellence" philosophy of this organization, but that does not mean that current members of our management team don't have useful skills. Firing people just to satisfy the bloodlust of meatball fans accomplishes little.

I'm willing to give Hahn some time to fix the mess he inherited. I expect he will retain what we do well - develop pitchers - and use a SABR-informed approach to make necessary changes to our position player drafting and development system. And I expect he will blend KW's "scouting-informed" influence when it is warranted to do so.

[TomBradley72]

Originally Posted by doublem23

The Sox had the #1 ranked minor league system in baseball while he was Director of Player Development.

What year?

He was in the role from 1995-2000- if he was "great" at minor league development- then we should have had a great minor leagues system by 1999 or 2000- looking at their rosters from that time period- there's really no home grown talent to point to (other than Buehrle)