Jeff Manto

[Lip Man 1]

Originally Posted by doublem23

100% true except for the fact that no, somebody DID say that IN THIS VERY THREAD...



I don't necessarily care what your opinions on how to build a baseball team are, that's all fine, just don't try this "uh, nobody said power was bad" BS when in fact, yeah, someone actually did. Don't give me this ****ing **** like we're responding to nobody.

OK Double fine.

I'm NOT SAYING and apparently Russ isn't saying that home runs are bad.

Does that make things better?

Jesus Christ this isn't life or death, we're not trying to score debate points here are we?

You're a smart guy, I think you know exactly what most folks are trying to say.

So there you go, you're right, I stand corrected and humbly ask your forgiveness.

Now can we get back to discussing baseball?

Many thanks.

Lip

[TaylorStSox]

Originally Posted by Lip Man 1

OK Double fine.

I'm NOT SAYING and apparently Russ isn't saying that home runs are bad.

Does that make things better?

Jesus Christ this isn't life or death, we're not trying to score debate points here are we?

You're a smart guy, I think you know exactly what most folks are trying to say.

So there you go, you're right, I stand corrected and humbly ask your forgiveness.

Now can we get back to discussing baseball?

Many thanks.

Lip

Only if we're bashing all things White Sox.

[slavko]

Originally Posted by Jurr

Yup, which is why I always HATED the Thome signing.

Is Thome a bad guy? Nope.
Is he a terrible baseball player? Absolutely not.

What he signified, though, was Kenny Williams' refusal to stick to a philosophy change.
I truly believe that NOT having a ton of power in the lineup makes you sharper as a team. You're looking to sacrifice. You're looking to execute a hit and run, because the three run homer isn't guaranteed.

Having guys like Thome and Dunn slow you down. You turn the brain volume down and stand at first or second base, hoping that they don't pull another ball right into the shift.

It's terrible baseball.

But it's easier to throw money at power hitters than it is to build a team through perseverance, knowledge and craft. And once Kenny got the keys to the vault, he figured he had it made and let's face it, easier is the way people do their jobs if they think they have it made.

Except, of course, you and me.

[TaylorStSox]

Oh Jesus. What was the winning percentage of Kenny Williams built teams and where did they finish in the AL? How were they compared to his predecessors?

[Lip Man 1]

Am here visiting my wife in Seattle so I don't have my Sox media guide with me. I did look this up a few years ago and if I remember correctly, Kenny averaged 83 wins a season under his tenure.

He had a better winning percentage than Roland and Himes and a worse one (I think) than Scheueler.

As far as number of winning seasons, Kenny had eight (although he also had a lot more resources to work with), Himes had one (he was only here for four years), Roland had six if I remember. Scheuler had six.The best winning seasons however came under guys like Frank Lane and Ed Short.

Lip

[JB98]

Basically, this is a team that is built to score with the home run. Problem is, they don't hit near enough home runs. Konerko's power is way down. Ramirez doesn't hit home runs anymore. Beckham has been out most of the year, and after a wrist injury, I don't think the Sox can count on 15 HRs from the 2B position this year. Viciedo doesn't look like he's going to match his production from last season either.

They aren't hitting home runs, and they are lost without them. A lumbering team that can't go first to third or second to home needs to have a good slugging percentage to score. The Sox will struggle unless they are hitting the ball off the wall or over it. Plain and simple. I think it's a personnel thing more than the coach, and I personally will not feel any better about the team if they fire Jeff Manto. Get rid of him if you want. I won't shed tears if they fire him either; I just don't think it will fix anything.

[TaylorStSox]

Originally Posted by JB98

Basically, this is a team that is built to score with the home run. Problem is, they don't hit near enough home runs. Konerko's power is way down. Ramirez doesn't hit home runs anymore. Beckham has been out most of the year, and after a wrist injury, I don't think the Sox can count on 15 HRs from the 2B position this year. Viciedo doesn't look like he's going to match his production from last season either.

They aren't hitting home runs, and they are lost without them. A lumbering team that can't go first to third or second to home needs to have a good slugging percentage to score. The Sox will struggle unless they are hitting the ball off the wall or over it. Plain and simple. I think it's a personnel thing more than the coach, and I personally will not feel any better about the team if they fire Jeff Manto. Get rid of him if you want. I won't shed tears if they fire him either; I just don't think it will fix anything.

Pretty much. When Paul Konerko is your DH and hitting clean up, you're screwed.

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

Pretty much. When 37-year-old Paul Konerko is your DH and hitting clean up, you're screwed.

Sorry had to add one last little bit in there

[TaylorStSox]

Originally Posted by doublem23

Sorry had to add one last little bit in there

Thought it was implied. I expected a drop off, but he has to be one of the worst everyday players in the AL. Combine that with the players JB mentioned and, well, that's your 2013 Sox. I actually thought we'd have enough hitting. I thought Viciedo would improve, Flowers would hit for power and Ramirez would hit with a bat instead a toothpick.

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

Thought it was implied. I expected a drop off, but he has to be one of the worst everyday players in the AL. Combine that with the players JB mentioned and, well, that's your 2013 Sox. I actually thought we'd have enough hitting. I thought Viciedo would improve, Flowers would hit for power and Ramirez would hit with a bat instead a toothpick.

Well, just needed to make sure. You've seen what happens around here sometimes when people are left to imply things on their own.

[Brian26]

This thread is unbelievable.

Lip...you dont need a media guide with you as long as you have an internet connection.

Anyone blaming Jim Thome for anything is way off the mark. Jim Thome replaced Carl Everett and helped the Sox win a lot more games over the next four years than he helped lose.

The second guessing of Kenny Williams is hilarious though. This guy gave the Sox every chance possible to win. Every season the dude was twisting Reinsdorf's arm for more money for deals. The players didn't always perform, but Kenny opened up an unprecedented window of opportunity for the Sox. To see a guy go after David Wells, Bartolo Colon, Thome, Dunn, Freddy Garcia, re-signing all the pitchers after 2005...I will take that 12 years and a World Title over anything Schueler or Hemond ever accomplished.

[Lip Man 1]

Brian:

I like to have things in front of me that I don't have to sort through to find or hit refresh at times. This was one of them. I'm pretty familiar with the Sox media guide so I can find what I need in a flash.

Feel free if you wish though to check and see how accurate my memory was.

Hemond by the way, in my opinion was the finest GM the Sox ever had because no GM was as badly behind the eight ball as he was when he took over in September 1970. The Sox literally were in worse shape than the expansion franchises and no Sox GM had to go through the financial issues with ownership like he did having to deal with Art Allyn, John Allyn and Bill Veeck.

When he actually had a little stability and money to work with he put together the 83 club. Wonder what he might have accomplished had he had those resources his entire Sox career.

I'd say Kenny is probably the 3rd best GM in my opinion behind Roland and Frank Lane and ahead of Ed Short and Scheueler.

Lip

[Tragg]

Originally Posted by Lip Man 1

Am here visiting my wife in Seattle so I don't have my Sox media guide with me. I did look this up a few years ago and if I remember correctly, Kenny averaged 83 wins a season under his tenure.

He had a better winning percentage than Roland and Himes and a worse one (I think) than Scheueler.

As far as number of winning seasons, Kenny had eight (although he also had a lot more resources to work with), Himes had one (he was only here for four years), Roland had six if I remember. Scheuler had six.The best winning seasons however came under guys like Frank Lane and Ed Short.

Lip

Roland and Himes took over losers. Williams and Scheuler took over a winner. Not surprising their W/L percentage is better. But Williams won a WS.

[TaylorStSox]

Originally Posted by Brian26

This thread is unbelievable.

Lip...you dont need a media guide with you as long as you have an internet connection.

Anyone blaming Jim Thome for anything is way off the mark. Jim Thome replaced Carl Everett and helped the Sox win a lot more games over the next four years than he helped lose.

The second guessing of Kenny Williams is hilarious though. This guy gave the Sox every chance possible to win. Every season the dude was twisting Reinsdorf's arm for more money for deals. The players didn't always perform, but Kenny opened up an unprecedented window of opportunity for the Sox. To see a guy go after David Wells, Bartolo Colon, Thome, Dunn, Freddy Garcia, re-signing all the pitchers after 2005...I will take that 12 years and a World Title over anything Schueler or Hemond ever accomplished.

Some people just aren't happy if they're not crying. The same people that blast KW for being overly aggressive don't have the patience to wait on prospects. They complain when we had the best system in baseball and complain when we mortgage the future to win now. They complain when we draft system players to fill the back end of the rotation and they complain when we draft raw, toolsy outfielders. For a guy that couldn't identify talent, we still have a hell of a pitching staff that's mostly homegrown.

People should be happy KW tried to win at all costs. He struck out a lot, but hit some major league home runs. I, for one, will never take 2005 for granted. Generations of Sox fans lived long, fruitful lives and never witnessed what we were part of. To this day, it still feels great. I will always be grateful to KW for having the stones to trade a young power hitter for a AAAA speedster. For trading 2 big prospects for a lazy, sweaty, declining pitcher. For trading a 20 game winner for a Cuban that couldn't win the big game.

Complain all you want about the team right now, but lets not act like the guy didn't know what the hell he was doing.

[Brian26]

2001-83
2002-81
03-86
04-83
05-99
06-90
07-72
08-89
09-79
10-88
11-79
12-85

Avg=84.5