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  #16  
Old 06-17-2013, 07:08 AM
kufram kufram is online now
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Seeing problems and fixing problems are two different things. One is easy.

In circumstances like we face now (i.e. an entire lineup failing), isn't it customary to fire the manager and hope you get a bump from the players under a new guy?

Calling everybody bums and stiffs is a little childish. Almost everybody is playing below their expected standard. Why is that?

I'm not sure 2005 was a great offense but I'll let the numbers guys argue about that. I think it did prove that doing the little things like moving runners, bunting, defense, etc. are as important as the big ones. We won a lot of 1 run games if I remember correctly, especially early in the season.

I think 2005 was a great team. People picked each other up.
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  #17  
Old 06-17-2013, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Jurr View Post
I truly believe that NOT having a ton of power in the lineup makes you sharper as a team. You're looking to sacrifice. You're looking to execute a hit and run, because the three run homer isn't guaranteed.
Um, the 2013 White Sox don't have a ton of power in the lineup. This is the result.
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  #18  
Old 06-17-2013, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Um, the 2013 White Sox don't have a ton of power in the lineup. This is the result.
They don't have a ton of ability, either. I think Jurr has a bit of a point, that having several guys who can drill the ball out can be a hindrance to an offense. We've seen plenty of games since 2005 where our guys swing for the fences, and they spend nine innings either whiffing or popping the ball straight up. I think it'd be refreshing to see a team who can put a guy or two on with regularity, with that occasionally leading to an extended rally, as opposed to getting a guy on (probably with two already out), and praying that someone's got a double or HR in them, because who knows when the next time that we're going to have a baserunner is.
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  #19  
Old 06-17-2013, 09:06 AM
SoxSpeed22 SoxSpeed22 is offline
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Not having a ton of power is okay, if you know how to hit everywhere else in the field. The problem is outside of home runs, the Sox hitters just aren't that good. Why they aren't that good is a whole different topic that could take about 60 pages to write up on.
My opinion on Walker, when he was fired, was that he wasn't the problem, but he sure as hell wasn't the solution. I feel the same way with Manto, I thought it was a lazy hire when it was made, and I agree that this points to bigger problems in the organization.
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  #20  
Old 06-17-2013, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
The problem goes way beyond Manto and went beyond Walker. This is an organizational problem that is systemic at every level, we don't value walks, hitting the other way, etc. If you can hit long homeruns, you will get promoted, it doesn't matter if you can't hit anything but a high 80s fastball down the middle.
Is it though? Walk's offense in Atlanta is basically a good version of the White Sox; low BA, low OBP, leads the NL in HR and K. He was still hitting coach for a lot of the guys on this roster, so who know how long his influence takes to wear off.

At any rate, Walk needed to be fired and it's looking like Manto needs to go, too. I agree with the overall point that maybe hitting coaches get too much credit when a team's good and too much blame when they're bad, and that it's ultimately on the players to perform, but clearly whatever these guys are doing, their players are not/have not responded. Time to try something new.
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  #21  
Old 06-17-2013, 09:39 AM
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I'm not sure a change of hitting coach would make much difference, but after some thought, I agree that is should be done. At the very least, it sends a message to the players and the fans. That message being that management sees there's a problem. Would there be a difference in performance or add wins? Maybe.

Maybe what we really need is a fielding coach. Catching and throwing the ball are the essence of basic baseball skills. We are not good at it. Check that, we are terrible. Maybe invest in a base running coach, too.

I'm being tongue in check here, but nothing frustrates me more than not being able to catch the ball, throw the ball, and have enough head in the game to avoid stupid base running mistakes.

Back to a different hitting coach....is there a rule that says we can't hire a hitting coach who was an actual good major league hitter?
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Last edited by nsolo; 06-17-2013 at 09:42 AM. Reason: wanted to add another thought
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  #22  
Old 06-17-2013, 09:54 AM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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It doesn't make much sense to play half your games at the Cell with a team that doesn't have any power. The park is a great place to hit home runs, but a bad place for singles and doubles hitters. The gaps play extremely small.
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I'm not counting this homerun or his 3 RBI from today's game because of the game situation. I'm not counting his pinch hit solo homerun in a blowout win in Colorado. In my book, Crede has 2 less home runs than his statistics show, 4 less RBI, and one less walk (the one where he pinch hit for Uribe after coming in with a 3-0 count and taking one pitch).
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  #23  
Old 06-17-2013, 10:46 AM
Foulke You Foulke You is offline
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
It doesn't make much sense to play half your games at the Cell with a team that doesn't have any power. The park is a great place to hit home runs, but a bad place for singles and doubles hitters. The gaps play extremely small.
This is a fact that many people choose to ignore. I will never understand the "home runs are bad" crowd. We are losing because we are getting out slugged by most teams this year. If you build your lineup with nine Jeff Keppingers and Juan Pierres, you are going to get slaughtered in the American League especially the way our ballpark plays in the summer. Ask the Orioles, Rangers, or Red Sox if all those home runs are hurting their chances to win. The Sox rank 13th out of 15th in the AL in HRs. This is one of the big reasons they can't score.
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  #24  
Old 06-17-2013, 11:04 AM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
It doesn't make much sense to play half your games at the Cell with a team that doesn't have any power. The park is a great place to hit home runs, but a bad place for singles and doubles hitters. The gaps play extremely small.
Nobody denies that the Sox need to have a few sluggers to have an offense that plays well to the park. However, the games where that power is a bonus are a handful. Power is cut down substantially due to weather in April and mid-to-late September. So let's say our home dates when the weather is warm (so the ball sails more) and the wind isn't a crossbreeze, extra power is a good idea. So that's roughly 40-50 games out of 162.

Balance is needed. We don't have any. We have one good top of the order hitter in the worse slump of his career (Keppinger) a bunch of low-average/high strikeout power hitters and the rest are well below league average hitters.

My issue with Manto is the his philosophy of hitting: That we should be super-aggressive and swing at pitches early in the count. Considering the number of high-strikeout guys and hitters with poor approaches in the lineup, we should be taking pitches to get a favorable count. Also, we're 28th in walks. A few extra base runners could help...

How many of our K's this year are due to letting the pitcher get ahead in the count giving him a distinct advantage?
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  #25  
Old 06-17-2013, 11:05 AM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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To add, Walker is the hitting coach in Atlanta right now, and I think they have a pretty decent offense.

It is the talent, not the coach, blame Kenny.
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  #26  
Old 06-17-2013, 11:39 AM
Saracen Saracen is offline
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It always baffled me that Walker got the blame for a horrific lineup assembled by Kenny. This is an organizational problem, it doesn't matter who the batting coach is.
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  #27  
Old 06-17-2013, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
It always baffled me that Walker got the blame for a horrific lineup assembled by Kenny. This is an organizational problem, it doesn't matter who the batting coach is.
Hm, the Sox were 4th in runs in the AL last season, their first year sans Walker.

Look, he sucked and deserved to be fired. That doesn't mean every problem has been solved, but Walker was a problem.
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  #28  
Old 06-17-2013, 12:13 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
Nobody denies that the Sox need to have a few sluggers to have an offense that plays well to the park. However, the games where that power is a bonus are a handful. Power is cut down substantially due to weather in April and mid-to-late September. So let's say our home dates when the weather is warm (so the ball sails more) and the wind isn't a crossbreeze, extra power is a good idea. So that's roughly 40-50 games out of 162.

Balance is needed. We don't have any. We have one good top of the order hitter in the worse slump of his career (Keppinger) a bunch of low-average/high strikeout power hitters and the rest are well below league average hitters.
Russ:

Agree completely. Think you are exactly correct.

Nobody is saying power is bad, nobody is saying home runs are bad, nobody is saying you can't have home run hitters when you play half your games at U.S. Cellular Field.

What some folks are saying is you need some ways other than home runs to win games since nobody can guarantee the Sox are going to hit three home runs a game with a guy or two on base.

Balance isn't a dirty word folks.

Lip
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  #29  
Old 06-17-2013, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Russ:

Agree completely. Think you are exactly correct.

Nobody is saying power is bad, nobody is saying home runs are bad, nobody is saying you can't have home run hitters when you play half your games at U.S. Cellular Field.

What some folks are saying is you need some ways other than home runs to win games since nobody can guarantee the Sox are going to hit three home runs a game with a guy or two on base.

Balance isn't a dirty word folks.

Lip
100% true except for the fact that no, somebody DID say that IN THIS VERY THREAD...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurr View Post
I truly believe that NOT having a ton of power in the lineup makes you sharper as a team. You're looking to sacrifice. You're looking to execute a hit and run, because the three run homer isn't guaranteed.

Having guys like Thome and Dunn slow you down. You turn the brain volume down and stand at first or second base, hoping that they don't pull another ball right into the shift.

It's terrible baseball.
I don't necessarily care what your opinions on how to build a baseball team are, that's all fine, just don't try this "uh, nobody said power was bad" BS when in fact, yeah, someone actually did. Don't give me this ****ing **** like we're responding to nobody.
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  #30  
Old 06-17-2013, 12:24 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is online now
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The funny thing is, those Walker teams actually could and did hit.
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