*Official* 5/22 Seeing "Red"; Red Sox-6 White Sox-2

[Tragg]

Originally Posted by Lip Man 1

Regarding Jones, am hearing that scouts from other teams still regard him highly and you wonder if this continues, if the Sox would include him in a multi player deal.

Simply can't understand what's wrong. I still think, in my opinion, he's tipping his pitches.

Veal by the way was sent back to Charlotte this morning so I assume Santiago moves into the bullpen and Axelrod stays in the rotation.

Lip

No question that Jones has promise. Just don't start dumping our promising young players for declining veterans, especially as the odds that we really contend this year remain against us.

[hawkjt]

Originally Posted by FielderJones

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...onesna01.shtml

His hit rate is identical to last year. His walk rate is higher by over 1 per 9 innings. To me, that's not tipping pitches, that's not finding the ****ing plate. Jones needs to throw strike 1, get ahead, and stop giving away free passes.

The whole staff,but the bullpen specifically,all have walked too many guys this year.....get it fixed,Coop!

Great comeback by my guy,Hector. He looked dead in the 1st inning,but battled back to give a quality start.
I agree that bullpen guys are rarely consistent year to year,it seems.

Reed is better, Crain is healthier...otherwise everyone is worse.
Getting Hector into the bullpen would help.
Veal was a worldbeater last year...this year..cannot find the plate.
Thornton has to figure it out quickly.

PK hit the ball well last nite...2 for 4 with a homer,and the hardest hit ball could have been a huge key in this game...with bases loaded in the 1st,his rocket right at Gomes was just bad luck. If that gets to the gap, Sox score three and take a lead,and maybe win that game.

Buchholz did settle down,but the Sox had plenty of chances.

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by FielderJones

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...onesna01.shtml

His hit rate is identical to last year. His walk rate is higher by over 1 per 9 innings. To me, that's not tipping pitches, that's not finding the ****ing plate. Jones needs to throw strike 1, get ahead, and stop giving away free passes.

Yeah. If I remember correctly, Jones was never much of a heralded prospect, even in the Sox's relatively bare organization. He was the Spring Training surprise of 2012 who pitched well enough to earn the 25th spot on the Opening Day roster and stuck around. But bullpen production is notoriously streaky, even for veterans, let alone young guys who made a huge developmental leap. Perhaps having 71 innings of MLB tape on the kid has allowed other teams to scout him a bit better now.

All that said, for as good as Jones' numbers looked last year, let's not forget he allowed something like 45% of all inherited runners to score, as well. So while I do think he has a promising arm, let's not pretend like the guy was coming off a year in which he was flat-out dominant. Stats like W-L record and ERA tell a very, very small part of the story, especially for middle inning relievers.

[FielderJones]

Originally Posted by doublem23

All that said, for as good as Jones' numbers looked last year, let's not forget he allowed something like 45% of all inherited runners to score, as well.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/v...eply&p=3054067

Yep, 44% (24 of 54). That number is actually down to 31% this year (5 of 16). I worry less about his inherited runners than I do about the runners he puts on with walks. They seem to score with alarming regularity.

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by FielderJones

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/v...eply&p=3054067

Yep, 44% (24 of 54). That number is actually down to 31% this year (5 of 16). I worry less about his inherited runners than I do about the runners he puts on with walks. They seem to score with alarming regularity.

Oh yeah, I agree, I merely pointing out that while some of Jones numbers last year looked great (8-0 record, 2.39 ERA, >8 K/9 IP) you're still talking about a guy who had some issues. I don't think it would be fair to him to talk about him like he was lights out last season

[JB98]

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

So far, nobody was more wrong about Flowers than me, but AJ wasn't the answer either.

I understood all the reasons for moving on from Pierzynski. He's 36 years old. He wasn't going to duplicate his 2012 numbers. He's never been great defensively. He's a pain in the ass in the clubhouse, etc.

But, all that said, if you're going to move on from a guy, you have to replace him with another guy who is capable of giving you a good 120 games behind the plate. The Sox didn't do that. They simply promoted Flowers for reasons unknown. There was nothing about his previous performance that suggested he could handle the job. He just happened to be around, and he's cheap, so I guess that's all that matters.

As a result, we've got a backup catcher as the starter and a Triple-A catcher as the backup. That position is a major problem for the Sox, and anyone with two eyes and a brain should have been able to see that coming into the season.

"Getting more at-bats" wasn't going to fix all the holes in Flowers' swing. He'll run into a few and knock 'em out of the yard, sure, but he's never going to hit more than .220 with his current approach. And even .220 may be overly optimistic.

[asindc]

Originally Posted by JB98

I understood all the reasons for moving on from Pierzynski. He's 36 years old. He wasn't going to duplicate his 2012 numbers. He's never been great defensively. He's a pain in the ass in the clubhouse, etc.

But, all that said, if you're going to move on from a guy, you have to replace him with another guy who is capable of giving you a good 120 games behind the plate. The Sox didn't do that. They simply promoted Flowers for reasons unknown. There was nothing about his previous performance that suggested he could handle the job. He just happened to be around, and he's cheap, so I guess that's all that matters.

As a result, we've got a backup catcher as the starter and a Triple-A catcher as the backup. That position is a major problem for the Sox, and anyone with two eyes and a brain should have been able to see that coming into the season.

"Getting more at-bats" wasn't going to fix all the holes in Flowers' swing. He'll run into a few and knock 'em out of the yard, sure, but he's never going to hit more than .220 with his current approach. And even .220 may be overly optimistic.

He was promoted to see if he could hack it. Apparently, he cannot. There is also the chance that Sox management suspected that he is not the long term answer, but needed him as a stop gap until Phegley or another option became available.

[Hitmen77]

Originally Posted by JB98

I understood all the reasons for moving on from Pierzynski. He's 36 years old. He wasn't going to duplicate his 2012 numbers. He's never been great defensively. He's a pain in the ass in the clubhouse, etc.

But, all that said, if you're going to move on from a guy, you have to replace him with another guy who is capable of giving you a good 120 games behind the plate. The Sox didn't do that. They simply promoted Flowers for reasons unknown. There was nothing about his previous performance that suggested he could handle the job. He just happened to be around, and he's cheap, so I guess that's all that matters.

As a result, we've got a backup catcher as the starter and a Triple-A catcher as the backup. That position is a major problem for the Sox, and anyone with two eyes and a brain should have been able to see that coming into the season.

"Getting more at-bats" wasn't going to fix all the holes in Flowers' swing. He'll run into a few and knock 'em out of the yard, sure, but he's never going to hit more than .220 with his current approach. And even .220 may be overly optimistic.

It could be that Sox wanted to, but simply were unable to acquire anyone to replace AJ as opposed to simply deciding to give the job to Flowers.

I don't know what the FA situation was for catchers last year. It could be that Hahn had a payroll limit that he already was at or above and didn't have the ability to sign a veteran catcher. If they were looking to acquire a serviceable catcher via trade, maybe they just didn't have the enough valuable players to trade away to make such an acquisition.

I'm just trying to give Hahn the benefit of the doubt that he wasn't just simply sold on Flowers being good enough to be a major league starting catcher. They probably weren't really expecting the Sox to be serious playoff contenders this year regardless of who was catcher. So, maybe they felt Flowers would be enough of a stop gap for this year.

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by Hitmen77

It could be that Sox wanted to, but simply were unable to acquire anyone to replace AJ as opposed to simply deciding to give the job to Flowers.

I don't know what the FA situation was for catchers last year. It could be that Hahn had a payroll limit that he already was at or above and didn't have the ability to sign a veteran catcher. If they were looking to acquire a serviceable catcher via trade, maybe they just didn't have the enough valuable players to trade away to make such an acquisition.

I'm just trying to give Hahn the benefit of the doubt that he wasn't just simply sold on Flowers being good enough to be a major league starting catcher. They probably weren't really expecting the Sox to be serious playoff contenders this year regardless of who was catcher. So, maybe they felt Flowers would be enough of a stop gap for this year.

I sincerely can't believe anyone though Tyler would prove to be THIS BAD if handed the starting job. Last year in limited at bats, he still hit .213/.296/.412. Not great numbers, but better than what he is doing now. His numbers are down across the board. In fact, last year, in his limited time, he did acquire 1.0 WAR, which if extrapolated to 162 games would have been about 2.5-3.0 for a full season, which is acceptable starter-level performance.

I don't fault the Sox at all in seeing what they had with Flowers, but his time has to be running out, especially with Phegley crushing the ball in AAA right now. There's got to come a time when you just throw him to the wolves, too, and see if he can make it.

[TheVulture]

Originally Posted by Hitmen77

KW was just selling us snake oil with players like Fields, Morel, and Anderson.

I wouldn't go so far as to compare it to selling snake oil. Those guys all had the ability, they just couldn't hack it for various reasons. Anderson, for example, definitely had the tools, he was just too dumb to succeed at the major league level. There was reason to think all of those guys might succeed, unfortunately they all failed.

[TaylorStSox]

Originally Posted by JB98

I understood all the reasons for moving on from Pierzynski. He's 36 years old. He wasn't going to duplicate his 2012 numbers. He's never been great defensively. He's a pain in the ass in the clubhouse, etc.

But, all that said, if you're going to move on from a guy, you have to replace him with another guy who is capable of giving you a good 120 games behind the plate. The Sox didn't do that. They simply promoted Flowers for reasons unknown. There was nothing about his previous performance that suggested he could handle the job. He just happened to be around, and he's cheap, so I guess that's all that matters.

As a result, we've got a backup catcher as the starter and a Triple-A catcher as the backup. That position is a major problem for the Sox, and anyone with two eyes and a brain should have been able to see that coming into the season.u

"Getting more at-bats" wasn't going to fix all the holes in Flowers' swing. He'll run into a few and knock 'em out of the yard, sure, but he's never going to hit more than .220 with his current approach. And even .220 may be overly optimistic.

I think it was a combination of the Sox wanting to see what they had in Flowers, who had an excellent minor league career, and AJ wearing out his welcome with staff. Also, AJ was pathetic behind the plate last year.

[Hitmen77]

Originally Posted by doublem23

I sincerely can't believe anyone though Tyler would prove to be THIS BAD if handed the starting job. Last year in limited at bats, he still hit .213/.296/.412. Not great numbers, but better than what he is doing now. His numbers are down across the board. In fact, last year, in his limited time, he did acquire 1.0 WAR, which if extrapolated to 162 games would have been about 2.5-3.0 for a full season, which is acceptable starter-level performance.

I don't fault the Sox at all in seeing what they had with Flowers, but his time has to be running out, especially with Phegley crushing the ball in AAA right now. There's got to come a time when you just throw him to the wolves, too, and see if he can make it.

Flowers is 27, so i think you're right about his time running out. I didn't realize it's already been almost 4 years since we first saw Flowers as a September call up.

I'm glad to see Phegley bounce back from the serious illness he had a couple of years ago. Hopefully he can continue the success he's having this year.

[Crestani]

Originally Posted by Lip Man 1

Great point about Flowers.

They let A.J. go and all Flowers has done so far is hit the occasional home run, strike out a ton, hit less than the Mendoza line AND is probably leading the league in passed balls.

Another great move eh?

Lip

I guarantee he is with runners on third and two outs...!!! He is absolutely brutal at blocking pitches in the dirt, or off the corners a little. I still think Pheagley needs to come up and not wait until September.

[Crestani]

Originally Posted by hawkjt

The whole staff,but the bullpen specifically,all have walked too many guys this year.....get it fixed,Coop!

Great comeback by my guy,Hector. He looked dead in the 1st inning,but battled back to give a quality start.
I agree that bullpen guys are rarely consistent year to year,it seems.

Reed is better, Crain is healthier...otherwise everyone is worse.
Getting Hector into the bullpen would help.
Veal was a worldbeater last year...this year..cannot find the plate.
Thornton has to figure it out quickly.

PK hit the ball well last nite...2 for 4 with a homer,and the hardest hit ball could have been a huge key in this game...with bases loaded in the 1st,his rocket right at Gomes was just bad luck. If that gets to the gap, Sox score three and take a lead,and maybe win that game.

Buchholz did settle down,but the Sox had plenty of chances.

Figure what out? That he can't throw 97 anymore, and that his top 95 MPH straight fastball will not get Major league batters out? Oh, and he has no other picthes he can throw for strikes so the hitter can just wait for that 94-95 straight fastball..?? He is done and hopefully we can get something for him by trade deadline..!!

[Brian26]

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

I think it was a combination of the Sox wanting to see what they had in Flowers, who had an excellent minor league career, and AJ wearing out his welcome with staff. Also, AJ was pathetic behind the plate last year.

That is pretty much it. Just because the move has not worked, it does not mean it was the wrong move. It was time to give Flowers a shot with everyday at bats. Handing AJ another contract was not the right move.