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  #16  
Old 05-22-2013, 07:37 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
No one who got any respect, anyway. Yes, Rob Deer struck out a lot. They also weren't respected hitters after they continued striking out. By the time they reached 32, they weren't getting serious playing time and their careers were over.

Reggie Jackson struck out a lot, when he came up for a last place team, but he cut down considerably on his strikeouts after he turned 25 and started playing for World Series Champions. He also hit for a pretty good average in many years. Harmon Killebrew struck out a lot, but between the ages of 27 and 39, he only had one season where he struck out more than 100 times.

Jim Rice played at a time when strikeouts were counted against you as offensive futility. If you struck out too much, you could lose playing time. Contenders had to find better options. Second-tier teams probably had someone else who could take your place. The Chicago media, and the national media when they bothered to pay attention to the White Sox, used to write that Bill Melton struck out too much, and he did strike out in 10 straight at bats in 1970 (it's referenced below the NFL labor story), but he only had one more season where he struck out more than 100 times and then only 106, one below his highest season total.

Of course, it isn't just Dunn. Hitters are striking out more than they ever have, not because pitchers are getting so much better and stronger. Maybe that plays a small factor, but the selfishness Rice referenced is a bigger factor. As analysts look at more abstract stats to determine a hitter's value to a lineup, they ignore strikeouts and bury the value of batting averages while overvaluing walks and home runs. If you essentially ignore the essence of hitting, you might hit over 50 home runs as Johnny Mize did in 1947. Walk enough, and you might have a better OPS, too, because Mize's that year was under 1.000. But what made Mize's season so awesome that older fans have talked with me about it over the years, was that he hit over .300 while striking out less than 50 times while hitting more than 50 home runs.

Nothing good offenseively comes from a strike out. That is why high-strikeout pitchers are celebrated. But one of the reasons pitchers are striking out more hitters than they ever have is that hitters don't seem to care if they strike out anymore. Players who don't shorten their swings or protect against borderline strikes with two strikes are going too deep in counts trying to walk when they should be focused on hitting. Players ignoring some of the basic principles of hitting (and maybe they are playing to specific stats to earn get bigger contracts), is making pitchers more dominant than they have been in years.

The fact is, though, that Dunn, relative to the rest of the league, at least, doesn't seem to be striking out as much as he has in the past. There are series this year where he has looked like a hitter with a completely different philosophy than he ever had. Maybe it's the pitchers that give him more trouble that make him look like the Dunn of recent years. But occasionally this year I have been impressed and I hope he impresses me some more.
Agreed on all. Good post.
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  #17  
Old 05-22-2013, 08:09 PM
eastchicagosoxfan eastchicagosoxfan is offline
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A bit of a side bar question. How many outs on average have been recorded by strikeout by decade? Is it higher now than ever? For the first three or four decades of the 20th century, only a handful of guys struck out over 100 times a season. Yet a guy like Rube Waddell struck out 349 batters in 1904. How does that strikeout rate, when compared to the number of outs by strikeout, compare to some of Ryan's better seasons?
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  #18  
Old 05-22-2013, 08:11 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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A bit of a side bar question. How many outs on average have been recorded by strikeout by decade? Is it higher now than ever? For the first three or four decades of the 20th century, only a handful of guys struck out over 100 times a season. Yet a guy like Rube Waddell struck out 349 batters in 1904. How does that strikeout rate, when compared to the number of outs by strikeout, compare to some of Ryan's better seasons?
Waddell pitched 383 innings that year, so really, a lesser strike out rate than a guy like Strasburg or Hamels today.
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  #19  
Old 05-22-2013, 08:13 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
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Rob Deer is the Cubs assistant hitting coach.
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  #20  
Old 05-22-2013, 08:14 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Rob Deer is the Cubs assistant hitting coach.
Look at a lot of managers and coaches. As Woody Allen said, "Those who can't do, teach."
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  #21  
Old 05-22-2013, 08:18 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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He should be able to show them what not to do. In all seriousness he might turn out to be a good hitting coach.
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  #22  
Old 05-22-2013, 08:27 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
Look at a lot of managers and coaches. As Woody Allen said, "Those who can't do, teach."
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Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
He should be able to show them what not to do. In all seriousness he might turn out to be a good hitting coach.
Deer did hit for power, and he walked a decent amount, so it's not as though he wasn't productive. You may be right that he'll be able to teach other players things he couldn't do himself, especially since he's had several years to reflect on his Major League career and learn from it.
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  #23  
Old 05-22-2013, 08:35 PM
BainesHOF BainesHOF is offline
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TDog was all over it in his post.

Strikeouts just don't carry the stigma that they used to. It's true pitchers are better these days. It's amazing how most throw in the 90s. Yet I can't believe how many hitters refuse to adjust their approach with two strikes. It's like choking up is beneath them. So apparently is cutting down on a swing.
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  #24  
Old 05-22-2013, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
The first guy debuted twelveyears after Rice and was only averaging less than 200 AB a year by age 30, since he sucked so bad and all, and the second guy was batting in the .270-.300 range yearly in the same age range that Dunn has hit lower than .180.

Rice is right, I can't believe anyone is still arguing Dunn should be in the lineup.
I want him gone as much as anyone, but Dunn's hitting .228/.330/.570 over the last 4 weeks. That's argument enough that he should be in any lineup, let alone arguably the worst lineup in baseball.
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  #25  
Old 05-22-2013, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by eastchicagosoxfan View Post
A bit of a side bar question. How many outs on average have been recorded by strikeout by decade? Is it higher now than ever? For the first three or four decades of the 20th century, only a handful of guys struck out over 100 times a season. Yet a guy like Rube Waddell struck out 349 batters in 1904. How does that strikeout rate, when compared to the number of outs by strikeout, compare to some of Ryan's better seasons?
Yes:

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  #26  
Old 05-22-2013, 09:03 PM
MISoxfan MISoxfan is offline
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Despite the strikeouts today's hitters are producing more runs per game than the league has since the 40's. Maybe they actually know what they're doing after all?

This isn't an excuse for Dunn, but many of you are acting like there is a problem with the league as a whole. Dunn was very good before he came to the Sox, but there is no way his production since has been an asset.
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  #27  
Old 05-22-2013, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by MISoxfan View Post
Despite the strikeouts today's hitters are producing more runs per game than the league has since the 40's. Maybe they actually know what they're doing after all?

This isn't an excuse for Dunn, but many of you are acting like there is a problem with the league as a whole. Dunn was very good before he came to the Sox, but there is no way his production since has been an asset.
Runs per game have been on a downward trend since the 90s.
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  #28  
Old 05-22-2013, 09:18 PM
MISoxfan MISoxfan is offline
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Runs per game have been on a downward trend since the 90s.
Since the late 90s, sure. I suppose that is worth mentioning. Is the approach to hitting in 1998-2000 any different than the approach to hitting today?
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  #29  
Old 05-22-2013, 09:27 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
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Since the late 90s, sure. I suppose that is worth mentioning. Is the approach to hitting in 1998-2000 any different than the approach to hitting today?


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  #30  
Old 05-22-2013, 09:28 PM
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Since the late 90s, sure. I suppose that is worth mentioning. Is the approach to hitting in 1998-2000 any different than the approach to hitting today?
It is certainly different than 20 years ago.
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