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  #31  
Old 05-20-2013, 02:03 AM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
You blame pitching for 1-0, 2-1, 3-2 losses, consistently. Please, spread blame around where blame is due.
I don't think I have ever blamed the pitching for losing 1-0 any more than I blamed the Angels offense for being shut out twice in less than a week in the games started by Sale. But if the Sox are winning in the eighth or ninth, and they lose 2-1 or 3-2, the pitching is just as much to blame as if they lost 10-9 after leading in the eighth or ninth inning.

If you are blaming the offense for losing a game in which the starting pitcher walks in two runs after giving up two runs in the previous inning, you are missing the point. A strong, winning season is about pitching a defense. That's the way it was for the White Sox in the 1950s and most of the 1960s. Pitching and defense ultimately was why the 2005 White Sox finished with the league's best record and went 11-1 in the postseason. Fans, particularly in Chicago, prefer strong offense to teams built around pitching. By the end of 1967, Chicago had lost interest in the White Sox because they had no offense while the Cubs did. But if you add 25 points to their team batting average, 25 home runs and 100 runs, you get the 1970 Chicago White Sox. Only three teams had a higher team batting average, and two of those teams won their divisions.

Cleveland is in first place because they are getting great pitching while getting great hitting. Texas is in first place because they have been getting great pitching, although I see it didn't happen tonight. Take away the White Sox late inning bullpen meltdowns and defensive meltdowns and their defensive-meltdown-enhanced-bullpen meltdowns, and they are ahead of the Tigers, who are scoring more than any team in the league. But when is the last time you've seen a team lose with the No. 3 hitter hitting three homers and driving in five while the cleanup hitter was driving in three. The Rangers score some runs, too, but the White Sox won two out of three in Arlington at the beginning of this road-intensive stretch despite not matching up offensively.

It starts with pitching and defense. If you don't get that, you're going to need a lot of offense. And teams that need a whole lot of offense generally don't leave fans with much more than memories of how much fun it was in July.
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  #32  
Old 05-20-2013, 09:30 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by DumpJerry View Post
Maybe the paucity of posts is due to the fact that the weather today in Chicago is real nice, it is a Sunday and there really isn't anything to say that hasn't been said already.
The low number of posts has been consistent all season, especially in post-game threads. Weather and weekends don't make much difference.
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  #33  
Old 05-20-2013, 09:32 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by Winningugly23 View Post
Don't get me wrong iam not saying that's the lone reason just a factor...The bats will warm up as the weather does iam sure of it. Let's not forget we have had what 6 guys on the DL as well.. All in all it could be much worse.
So will the bats of the opposition. The weather argument every season seems to ignore the opponents.
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  #34  
Old 05-20-2013, 09:33 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by Winningugly23 View Post
we are pretty much at the same point we were last year...
And we know how that ended.
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  #35  
Old 05-20-2013, 09:34 AM
delben91 delben91 is online now
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
And we know how that ended.
Yeah, was an enjoyable few months over the summer though. Doesn't appear that will be the case this time around.
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  #36  
Old 05-20-2013, 10:00 AM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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Originally Posted by A. Cavatica View Post
I would care if we had a core of exciting young players. But besides Sale, there's nobody exciting.
Rios too, but he doesn't exactly have a history that screams fan-friendly.

We need either a few good young upbeat talented players, or a likeable star.

You could say that this year is payback from Kenny's win at all costs era of management, but also few of the younger players are going to bring excitement.
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  #37  
Old 05-20-2013, 10:52 AM
ChiSoxGal85 ChiSoxGal85 is offline
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Personally, I'm watching the games, but feel like I have nothing new to say - it's the same old stuff. It's sad but I think in-game and post-game posts will go up if the Sox get on a winning streak (much like attendance at games). What else is there to say except the same old gripes when the Sox are pretty much struggling to keep their heads above water?
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  #38  
Old 05-20-2013, 11:36 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by PushinWeight View Post
The past decade, eh? Wouldn't that include the year 2005?
Pushin:

It does...it also includes 2003, 2006, 2010 and 2012 the four seasons the Sox blew post season spots because they fell apart in either the second half overall or down the stretch.

My point was to Winning the excuses over the past decade, 'oh, it's cold...the team never saw this pitcher, the pitcher is left handed and throws junk etc are getting thin.'

Lip
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  #39  
Old 05-20-2013, 11:38 AM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
That's an oversimplification. If your bullpen needs more rest to be more effective, going deep into your bullpen when your team is already trailing by four on the road might be counterproductive. When a team is losing, sometimes it's more important for a pitcher to give up innings than to burn more bullpen innings. Last season, as strong as the bullpen seemed to be, the Sox were close to the top in the majors in leads given up by relievers after the fifth inning. Part of that was the number of close games they played. Part of that was probably overwork of some of the relievers.

Major league baseball managers are more than head coaches, and baseball is unique among major sports in that pitching is such an important factor in whether you win or lose, and it is the most difficult part of the game to manage. Mangers have to manage their team through a season. They have to make decisions that affect their ability to compete in future games. It isn't a matter of managing every game to win. It's a matter of putting your team in a position to win as many games as you can.

That is why a manager betting on his team to win a game is a severe violation of the team's trust. If he is betting on a game, he could have financial incentive to make decisions he wouldn't otherwise make because they weaken his team. If he isn't betting on a specific game, he might not make moves that could give his team a better chance of winning in favor of having a better chance of winning.

Peavy giving up four runs lost the game. Taking Peavy out after the second bases-loaded walk, as he might have done in a must-win situation, wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game, but it would have burned more bullpen innings.
But it is that simple. When you're late in a game with a lead you make darn sure you win THAT game; particularly when it's a close game, you don't leave bullets in the chamber worrying about tomorrow.
Thornton was well-rested. He should have been brought in the game on Saturday in the 7th. He wasn't. Why? Likely to save him for a later inning. Or to rest the pen. We were in a perfect position to win that game, needed a key out, and Ventura is worried about an inning we may never get to (and didn't). Not only that, he brought in a guy fresh out of AAA in a high leverage situation.

He then compounded that serious error by keeping Veal in the game to give up several more runs.
And saving the pen gains you what exactly? One day, one game. Exactly what we gave away trying to rest the pen.
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  #40  
Old 05-20-2013, 11:43 AM
Foulke You Foulke You is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
Peavy had eight walks in 45.2 innings coming into today. In this game, he walked five in six innings. Just a rare bad day for Jake. For the most part, he beat himself.

The Sox weathered this stretch of 15 of 18 games on the road with a 9-9 record. Not too shabby. The injured guys who are going to come back will be back soon.

We'll see if they can get hot in June and at least make it a little interesting.
I feel the same way. This was a 4W-3L road trip that included a west coast swing. It felt a bit worse then that since they ended it with two losses. If Santiago holds that 4-0 lead on Saturday, I think the mood around here would be better. There were few positives on this trip. Overall, the offense looked better. We were at least putting runners on base and giving ourselves a chance to score. We had multiple double digit hit games too and a week ago, that seemed impossible. The walking dead of Dunn and Keppinger had a productive road trip although I'm a bit concerned about Adam's back spasms messing up his hot streak. Gordon Beckham is likely to return in a few days which will solidify the defense again and will almost certainly be an improvement over what we've gotten from Keppinger. We'll just have to see what happens here. The Sox have a track record of climbing into divisonal races in June.
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  #41  
Old 05-20-2013, 12:51 PM
Winningugly23 Winningugly23 is offline
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My fellow Sox fans don't sound so defeated, let us get 100% healthy and then see what happens...Don't give up guys..
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  #42  
Old 05-20-2013, 12:54 PM
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JB98 JB98 is offline
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Originally Posted by Foulke You View Post
I feel the same way. This was a 4W-3L road trip that included a west coast swing. It felt a bit worse then that since they ended it with two losses. If Santiago holds that 4-0 lead on Saturday, I think the mood around here would be better. There were few positives on this trip. Overall, the offense looked better. We were at least putting runners on base and giving ourselves a chance to score. We had multiple double digit hit games too and a week ago, that seemed impossible. The walking dead of Dunn and Keppinger had a productive road trip although I'm a bit concerned about Adam's back spasms messing up his hot streak. Gordon Beckham is likely to return in a few days which will solidify the defense again and will almost certainly be an improvement over what we've gotten from Keppinger. We'll just have to see what happens here. The Sox have a track record of climbing into divisonal races in June.
My feeling is the mood is bad around here just because the losses have been so damn ugly. The two games Santiago started on this trip were absolutely brutal to watch. Horrendous defense and terrible pitching from both Hector and all those who relieved him in those two games. Then, of course, Peavy pretty much beat himself with walks yesterday.

I think the Sox can still make this interesting, but I understand why people feel otherwise. Despite the fact that they have a similar record to this same time last year, I think there is a general feeling the team looks worse this year. Losses last season seemed to mostly be the result of not hitting. This year, we've seen each component of the team break down at various times, and that makes it a little more difficult to have much optimism.

But, the warm-weather months are typically kinder to the Sox than April or May. USCF plays small in June and July, and this team is built for that. We'll see if that leads to a hot streak again this year.
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  #43  
Old 05-20-2013, 02:27 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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But, the warm-weather months are typically kinder to the Sox than April or May. USCF plays small in June and July, and this team is built for that. We'll see if that leads to a hot streak again this year.
Tyler Flowers (and the rest of the team, for that matter) still has to make contact to actually hit.
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  #44  
Old 05-20-2013, 02:36 PM
hawkjt hawkjt is offline
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17 hits on Saturday is making contact,imo.

These are times that try all Sox fans loyalty and patience,but all you can do is hang in there.

As for the Sox not being of high interest, well....thats what you get for being in 5th place.

When they move up to 1st fan interest will pick up immediately.
It is only a matter of time.
Sox always streak at the end of May and in June.
Jake just did not have good command yesterday...not good for your #2 ace.
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  #45  
Old 05-20-2013, 03:51 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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But it is that simple. When you're late in a game with a lead you make darn sure you win THAT game; particularly when it's a close game, you don't leave bullets in the chamber worrying about tomorrow.
...
The White Sox didn't have the lead late in the game. They lost the lead midway through the game. That was a big difference. If they had the lead late, you wouldn't have seen Veal unless it was to get out a lefty. If Santiago had pitched into the sixth instead of the fourth, you probably wouldn't have seen Jones stay in to pitch multiple innings.

No major league managers manage in May without regard to how their moves will affect upcoming games, no successful ones anyway. Jerry Manuel was accused of burning out both his starting rotation and his bullpen at various times. So was Dusty Baker. Terry Bevington once called for a pitcher to come into a game before he even started to warm up, such was his no-tomorrow attitude. For that matter, some accused Robin Ventura of burning out his bullpen last year. Pitch counts are only relevant because teams are thinking of future games. The National last year had a team that had a chance to go to the World Series when they shut down their best pitcher because he reached what most people outside the organization considered an arbitrary innings limit.
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