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  #31  
Old 05-02-2013, 10:01 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Brian:

Well it's a fact that Sox got hit with injuries that derailed seasons a few times just in the past few years (04, 07, 10, 12, this year)...that's not a reflection on Herm, Cooper or anybody else...probably just the law of averages kicking in.

It does however emphasize the point about the depth issues in the organization.

If in fact, the Sox are going to start losing guys more regularly simply because of chance (five guys on the DL right now for example...) that makes the issue even greater.

Lip
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  #32  
Old 05-02-2013, 10:42 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by Brian26 View Post
Doub's point still holds true. Hell, there is 30 year gap in the examples you just mentioned between Melton falling (thought it was his roof) and Crede's back. The Sox have been a healthy franchise since Herm arrived.
And people forget to mention promising outfield prospect Herman Hill dying in a boating accident, pitchers Steve Olin and Tim Crews dying in another boating accident, superstar Lyman Bostock being shot to death on the streets of Gary, Indiana, after a game at old Comiskey, Bo Jackson diminishing his baseball career by insisting on playing football in the offseason, catcher Thurman Munson dying in a plane crash, former Rookie of the Year Ken Hubbs dying in a plane crash, and pitcher Darryl Kyle being found dead in a Chicago hotel room before a game, and those are just off the top of my head and don't include the stories about players injured after being dreaming they were being attacked by spiders or defrosting meat. Of course, none of those examples were playing for the White Sox.

Stuff happens. It happens to every team. It happens to other teams more often than it does to the White Sox. The traumatic injuries to Monty Stratton and Carlos May were decades apart, not part of a pattern for a cursed franchise. And the White Sox aren't the only franchise with a history of third basemen with back problems. The Yankees last year were so banged up that Dewayne Wise was starting for baseball's golden franchise before the Yankees traded for Ichiro Suzuki, and the Yankees aren't any healthier so far this year.

It's not going to bother me if Peavy can't start a game because of back spasms. It wasn't an arm injury. It might have been if he had pitched. Dizzy Dean said he hurt his arm after coming back too soon from being hit in the toe with a line drive, changing his motion to compensate.

And tonight Santiago was OK in replacing Peavy.

Frankly, I am surprised at the overreaction.
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  #33  
Old 05-03-2013, 12:05 AM
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Frankly, I am surprised at the overreaction.
Because it's human nature to want to throw a big pity party for yourself all the time, I guess. Frankly, threads like this are embarrassing to the community, it's like nobody posting in this thread has been paying attention to anything for the last 15 seasons.
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  #34  
Old 05-03-2013, 06:22 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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TDog raises an interesting observation that confirms the essence of Lip's concern.

Last year, when injuries led the Yankees to start Wise in the OF, they managed to acquire Ichiro.

Not only were they willing to pick up the salary, but they also were willing to trade from their pool of prospects, which always seems to have a pipeline of talent.

Last year, when Danks went down, the Sox made an aggressive move to acquire Liriano. But the loss of Escobar hurts because we don't have a plethora of prospects in the pipeline.

Injuries happen. They happen to the Sox less than other teams. But the Sox don't have much good organizational depth to fill holes, or to trade to fill holes.

I get that the Yankees can spend more on their payroll. But why can't the Sox minor league system be more productive than it is?
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  #35  
Old 05-03-2013, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
TDog raises an interesting observation that confirms the essence of Lip's concern.

Last year, when injuries led the Yankees to start Wise in the OF, they managed to acquire Ichiro.

Not only were they willing to pick up the salary, but they also were willing to trade from their pool of prospects, which always seems to have a pipeline of talent.

Last year, when Danks went down, the Sox made an aggressive move to acquire Liriano. But the loss of Escobar hurts because we don't have a plethora of prospects in the pipeline.

Injuries happen. They happen to the Sox less than other teams. But the Sox don't have much good organizational depth to fill holes, or to trade to fill holes.

I get that the Yankees can spend more on their payroll. But why can't the Sox minor league system be more productive than it is?
Honestly, I don't think this post could be any less correct if you tried...

A. The Yankees do not have a "pipeline of talent." They've had one star player come out of their farm system in the last 15-20 years; Cano. Otherwise their track record of player development rivals the Sox's for mediocrity.

B. They "were able to" acquire Ichiro because the M's gave him away for nothing because Ichiro in 2012 and 2013 is a ****ing awful baseball player. Seriously, the two guys NYY gave up for him are 2 mid-20s pitchers who have thrown a combined (get ready for it) 6.2 innings in their MLB careers. ****, they've already released one.

C. The Sox made the exact same move last year, as well, acquiring Youkilis to fill their hole at 3B and traded away two garbage players to do it.

D. We all know why the Sox minor league system isn't productive, the team has never focused investing in the Draft or Latin American operations. It is what it is. I don't like it either but I don't need to be all "woe is me," about it every time every little thing goes wrong.

E. Don't bother comparing anyone else to the Yankees. They live on a different planet than us mortals. That's just the way it is.
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  #36  
Old 05-03-2013, 08:50 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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  #37  
Old 05-03-2013, 08:53 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Sox fans hate to lose, and hate it more when obvious solutions, like investing in drafting, global scouting, and player development, are ignored.
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  #38  
Old 05-03-2013, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
Sox fans hate to lose, and hate it more when obvious solutions, like investing in drafting, global scouting, and player development, are ignored.
Sox fans also hate when people make **** up

Everybody knows the Sox haven't invested in their farm system for years and they'be paid for it now. These are, by the way, some of the same people who whined 10-15 years ago that the Sox were too reluctant to keep prospects instead of using them to make moves to bolster the Major League roster. So you can't win with them.

The Yankees acquired a 39-year-old, ****ty corner OF who has an OPS of about .700. They have a minor league system that has been just as bad as ours. It is what it is.

Last edited by doublem23; 05-03-2013 at 09:07 AM.
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  #39  
Old 05-03-2013, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Sox fans also hate when people make **** up

Everybody knows the Sox haven't invested in their farm system for years and they'be paid for it now. These are, by the way, some of the same people who whined 10-15 years ago that the Sox were too reluctant to keep prospects instead of using them to make moves to bolster the Major League roster. So you can't win with them.

The Yankees acquired a 39-year-old, ****ty corner OF who has an OPS of about .700. They have a minor league system that has been just as bad as ours. It is what it is.
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  #40  
Old 05-03-2013, 01:11 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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IIRC correctly Derek Jeter, Andy Pettitte, Mariano Rivera, Jorge Posada, Robinson Cano, Brett Gardner, Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain all came out of the Yankees farm system. I realize not all are close to recent. 4 of the top 75 prospects according to MLB.com are in the Yankees farm system. I don't have time to look up all MLB players who were originally signed by the Yankees, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say their farm system has been say just a little more productive than ours.
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  #41  
Old 05-03-2013, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Stuff happens. It happens to every team. It happens to other teams more often than it does to the White Sox.
And tonight Santiago was OK in replacing Peavy.

Frankly, I am surprised at the overreaction.
Is that true? Wouldn't it take a little bit of time and research to confirm or refute that? I have no idea myself. I only claim to be somewhat versed in the history of 4 out of 30 MLB teams. As for the overreaction, why be surprised. Like many others have noted the Sox are thin on replacement talent and a potential 85 win season can turn into a 65-70 win season when the injury bug bites hard. Sadly this has been true since I became a Sox fan. They just couldn't afford Donovan in 55, Lollar in 57, Melton in 72. On and on. That was when they had good teams to begin with. This year's version wasn't so hot from the get go.
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  #42  
Old 05-03-2013, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
IIRC correctly Derek Jeter, Andy Pettitte, Mariano Rivera, Jorge Posada, Robinson Cano, Brett Gardner, Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain all came out of the Yankees farm system. I realize not all are close to recent. 4 of the top 75 prospects according to MLB.com are in the Yankees farm system. I don't have time to look up all MLB players who were originally signed by the Yankees, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say their farm system has been say just a little more productive than ours.
Using Jeter, Posada, Pettitte, and Rivera to argue the Yankees have been good at developing players in 2013 is as silly as me saying the Sox are doing fine because they developed the Big Hurt, Ventura, McDowell, Alex Fernandez!!!

Yes, the Yankees have been a bit better than the Sox at developing their own in that they have 1 good player come out of their farm system in the past 20 years, but this idea that they have some kind of magic Talent Pipeline is silly. The Yankees don't build from within, for as long as I can remember they've won because money is no object to them. You don't have to have a good farm system when you're willing to absorb any deal or outbid anybody for even marginal player's services.

Also, they cheat.
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  #43  
Old 05-03-2013, 02:38 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Using Jeter, Posada, Pettitte, and Rivera to argue the Yankees have been good at developing players in 2013 is as silly as me saying the Sox are doing fine because they developed the Big Hurt, Ventura, McDowell, Alex Fernandez!!!

Yes, the Yankees have been a bit better than the Sox at developing their own in that they have 1 good player come out of their farm system in the past 20 years, but this idea that they have some kind of magic Talent Pipeline is silly. The Yankees don't build from within, for as long as I can remember they've won because money is no object to them. You don't have to have a good farm system when you're willing to absorb any deal or outbid anybody for even marginal player's services.

Also, they cheat.
It's interesting to me that they won all those titles mostly built on homegrown talent; Jeter, Posada, Rivera, Pettite, Williams.

Over the years they haven't developed as much young talent apart from Cano, and while their payroll has meant that they have been able to contend year in and year out, they have one just one championship since that core aged and/or retired.
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  #44  
Old 05-03-2013, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
Is that true? Wouldn't it take a little bit of time and research to confirm or refute that? I have no idea myself. I only claim to be somewhat versed in the history of 4 out of 30 MLB teams. As for the overreaction, why be surprised. Like many others have noted the Sox are thin on replacement talent and a potential 85 win season can turn into a 65-70 win season when the injury bug bites hard. Sadly this has been true since I became a Sox fan. They just couldn't afford Donovan in 55, Lollar in 57, Melton in 72. On and on. That was when they had good teams to begin with. This year's version wasn't so hot from the get go.
And the one season in the last three that the Giants didn't win the World Series they couldn't afford to lose Buster Posey.

If you are complaining about the White Sox sustaining an unusual high number of injuries and not being able to deal with losing so many players to injury, you simply aren't paying attention to the rest of major league baseball.
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  #45  
Old 05-03-2013, 03:12 PM
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If you are complaining about the White Sox sustaining an unusual high number of injuries and not being able to deal with losing so many players to injury, you simply aren't paying attention to the rest of major league baseball.
As is the case with posters on many issues here. "The Sox do this and that and get screwed," etc., people say, without any comparison to the other 29 teams.
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