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  #31  
Old 04-28-2013, 08:55 PM
Wedema Wedema is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Typical if you ignore the fact that Axelrod was even with Pirce after six. Price is a superior pitcher. He came into the game with an ERA infated by two rough games, particularly a 13-0 loss to the Indians in his second start, but he was the more skilled starter in today's game.

This was a game the Sox could have won and probably should have won, even with the score tied after six. Every loss but Saturday's on this homestand was lost by the bullpen, a couple with the help of defensive lapses. And the bullpen played a factor in Saturday's loss.

I think the game turned, no twith the game-tying home run against Axelrod, but with the line-drive double play. The Sox seemed to be getting to Price, who may have been in the game too long because he wanted to get his first win, which he couldn't get if he left with the score tied. If Flowers gets the ball though the infield, the Sox have a very good chance of at least pushing across a run. That woudl have been a different ballgame. I don't know if Ventura tries to get another inning out of Jones

If the Sox had the lead. If the game is tied late, you don't want to burn too many pitchers, and I can see how it's tempting to leave Jones in for another inning. He has such great stuff. Unfortunately, he is often behind in the count. While his stuff is good enough to pitch from behind in the count he isn't as effective after he puts runners on basse. I don't know if he tires after one inning, necesarily, althogh a couple of times this year he has had bad second innngs. It might be that he stiffens up on the bench or he loses his rhythm.

The game was still winnable when Thornton got Loney, but the error let it get away, reminiscent of a Rays win with Juan Pierre dropping a fly iin left a couple of Aprils ago. All hope seemed lost when Rios finished a brutal inning by grouning into the double play. Ventura putting in the pitcher who just got into town for the ninth to give up two more tells me he is concerned about overworking his bullpen.

Really, I think the Sox have a pretty good bullpen, but this weekend, this homestand doesn't back that up.
The bullpen was rested with the blowout yesterday and there is an off day tomorrow. You don't worry about using too many pitchers in a tie game in the top of the eighth.
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  #32  
Old 04-28-2013, 09:07 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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I'd also like to note that there isn't going to be any "firesale" until at least July. Be careful what you wish for, folks. I know it's bad right now, but yes, it can get worse. Remember, every player who gets traded needs to be replaced by *somebody*. I don't want to hear any "Just play the kids" ****. We don't have any kids to play.
No doubt about that. It will get worse. When you go into the season with Wise, and his .095 good-clubhouse-chemistry batting average (he should just be released) as your top bench bat, you've given yourself zero room for error.
An impotent farm system, caused mainly by poor drafting and development, is the main culprit. But poor trades (in giving away prospects and in trading for prospects) haven't helped either.
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  #33  
Old 04-28-2013, 10:32 PM
Brewski Brewski is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
RC:

Brewski was commenting on Robin's comment. I was wondering what he meant by it and speculated that Robin could be preparing everyone for a fire sale.

You have to think this at least has already been discussed by Hahn and his staff.

Lip
Thx for explaining what I was doing, Lip. If Robin said what he said, nothing is left to guess about a fire sale. Trouble is and all of us know it, what's waiting in the wings is other teams' rejects. Management may figure that enthusiasm predicts attendance and if this season is headed where it seems to be headed, now's the time to do it, cause we're going to bottom out anyway.
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  #34  
Old 04-28-2013, 11:46 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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This team is not the same team we had on Opening Day. We're minus Beckham, Tank and this past weekend Keppinger. That's three everyday players the White Sox were counting on heavily in 2013. I'm hoping Keppinger is back this Tuesday. He was starting to hit and he got hurt. This eight game road trip can be a diffucult one. I hope we get out of it with at least 4 wins. I'm also hoping Hahn makes a move to improve this team offensively, sooner rather than later.
Good luck with that thought, the Sox have nothing to trade and are already about at the payroll limit.

Nell:

If you are into a rebuild mode you don't keep a pitcher in his 30's (Peavy) who if healthy might actually bring you some good prospects in return, given as well that he has a reasonable three year deal.

JB:

I don't think anybody is "wishing" for a rebuild. I think 99% of all Sox fans wish they were like the Yankees and just reloaded every season spending whatever amount of money it takes. But that's not going to happen and even to me (and I hate the thought of rebuilding) it appears that this approach is one Hahn has to at least consider since as was discussed in another thread the Sox seem to be perpetually stuck in that Twilight Zone of 85 wins. And it honestly looks like they might not even reach that number this season.

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  #35  
Old 04-28-2013, 11:48 PM
tstrike2000 tstrike2000 is offline
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No doubt about that. It will get worse. When you go into the season with Wise, and his .095 good-clubhouse-chemistry batting average (he should just be released) as your top bench bat, you've given yourself zero room for error.
An impotent farm system, caused mainly by poor drafting and development, is the main culprit. But poor trades (in giving away prospects and in trading for prospects) haven't helped either.
Yet, the person responsible for some of this was promoted. Hahn wasn't given much to work with, and he's only been in the job a very short time, but it's not looking good for him right now. This team was banking on too many things working out, which includes having very little margin for error when it comes to injuries. Too many defensive lapses to go along with Robin still plagued by some inexperienced managing have also been a problem.
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  #36  
Old 04-28-2013, 11:53 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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No doubt about that. It will get worse. When you go into the season with Wise, and his .095 good-clubhouse-chemistry batting average (he should just be released) as your top bench bat, you've given yourself zero room for error.
An impotent farm system, caused mainly by poor drafting and development, is the main culprit. But poor trades (in giving away prospects and in trading for prospects) haven't helped either.
Tragg:

What I can't figure out is this. I've spoken to Rick a few times and he comes across as a sharp guy, intelligence-wise and baseball-wise.

He's got to know his bench was woefully inadaquate, yet he did nothing about it, not even taking a sniff at guys who were released with major league experience. As you said he was rolling the dice from an injury standpoint and he's come up snake eyes.

As smart as he is, that doesn't make sense, there's got to be more to the story here. I just can't figure out what it could be unless he was told to do some things (or not do some things) by those above him.

Lip
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  #37  
Old 04-29-2013, 12:47 AM
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I just think that if an injury pops up for another team in which they have a need that we could supply why not get going with it? I fear any value guy we have will be worth nothing by the time July rolls around. We are simply spinning our wheels and we are already playing Greene, Gillaspie, Flowers, and Danks. Our lineup is not major league quality as is. Yes it can get worse but this is not working. Beckham and Tank will certainly help when they return but it might be too late by then if we continue to not win series.
Because it is April 28. Only a coward gives up 24 games into a 162-game season. Let's not pretend the Sox are 10 games out. This team has played terrible and has bit hit hard by key injuries, yet the gap between the Sox and the top of the division is just four games.

Granted, "We play in a crappy division" isn't much of a rallying cry, and I know it's a Chicago tradition to throw in the towel at the first sign of adversity. But the season is not even close to being over. In fact, it has barely started.

If the team is still playing like this into June, then yes, you start thinking about making changes. I figure about 60 games into the season, you should start to have a pretty good feel about where things stand. We aren't even halfway to that point yet, and we won't be for another week.

And I hate to tell you, but I think Peavy is the only veteran on this roster who would bring a nice return in a trade. Barring injury, his trade value isn't going to be any less in July than it is right now. I don't believe in trading guys because you're fearful they might get hurt. I think the prudent thing to do is hold on to him, see what happens with this team, and if you do decide to deal him, offer him to multiple teams and try to create a July bidding war. No sense in just selling him off now because some other team "has a need." That's bad business. Fans can afford to be emotional. GMs cannot.

If the Sox trade Alex Rios, your new starting RF is Dewayne Wise. I know that's a sad truth, but that's how it is. That's not a move that builds for the future. That's just plain ol' bull****, and you'll never see me advocate that on this board.
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  #38  
Old 04-29-2013, 12:50 AM
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Tragg:

What I can't figure out is this. I've spoken to Rick a few times and he comes across as a sharp guy, intelligence-wise and baseball-wise.

He's got to know his bench was woefully inadaquate, yet he did nothing about it, not even taking a sniff at guys who were released with major league experience. As you said he was rolling the dice from an injury standpoint and he's come up snake eyes.

As smart as he is, that doesn't make sense, there's got to be more to the story here. I just can't figure out what it could be unless he was told to do some things (or not do some things) by those above him.

Lip
For lack of a better explanation, the Sox have a lot of immovable salary on this team. They're pretty much stuck where they are, waiting for some of these big-dollar deals to come off the books.
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  #39  
Old 04-29-2013, 12:56 AM
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doublem23 doublem23 is online now
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I just think that if an injury pops up for another team in which they have a need that we could supply why not get going with it? I fear any value guy we have will be worth nothing by the time July rolls around. We are simply spinning our wheels and we are already playing Greene, Gillaspie, Flowers, and Danks. Our lineup is not major league quality as is. Yes it can get worse but this is not working. Beckham and Tank will certainly help when they return but it might be too late by then if we continue to not win series.
Guys become more valuable as the trade deadline nears, though, as well.

I mean, seriously, is this the first year you've been a baseball fan? Big time trades don't happen in April.

Calm down, people. Sheesh.
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  #40  
Old 04-29-2013, 01:00 AM
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For lack of a better explanation, the Sox have a lot of immovable salary on this team. They're pretty much stuck where they are, waiting for some of these big-dollar deals to come off the books.
I would think Dunn's the only guy whose contract is so terrible that the Sox just aren't going to be able to move him. Rios only has $12.5 M guaranteed on his deal after this year plus a $1 M buy out in 2015. Peavy's contract's not bad. Konerko and Floyd's deals expire after this year. Assuming Gavin's not too hurt, they won't fetch a ton, but you would think you could get something... There's always 1 dumb ass team always willing to overpay for a middle of the road SP rental.

We shall see.
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  #41  
Old 04-29-2013, 01:10 AM
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I would think Dunn's the only guy whose contract is so terrible that the Sox just aren't going to be able to move him. Rios only has $12.5 M guaranteed on his deal after this year plus a $1 M buy out in 2015. Peavy's contract's not bad. Konerko and Floyd's deals expire after this year. Assuming Gavin's not too hurt, they won't fetch a ton, but you would think you could get something... There's always 1 dumb ass team always willing to overpay for a middle of the road SP rental.

We shall see.
I think Rios has a reputation around baseball as having a "don't-give-a-****" attitude. I don't know how eager other clubs would be to add him to their clubhouse midseason. Obviously just speculating, but I would guess the Sox would have to eat some of that contract to deal him.

Peavy's contract is very fair. He's still a quality pitcher, a guy any team could use. I think the Sox could get good value in return if it comes to that.

I would guess Floyd will be with the Sox for the rest of the year, and then he'll be hitting the bricks. This is his third DL stint in the last two years. You're correct that it only takes one idiot who is willing to overpay for a SP rental, but even bad GMs stay away from oft-injured pitchers.

Paulie is another guy that other teams would want, but his 10/5 rights would allow him to dictate his destination. It's hard to get great value in those situations. Just ask the Cubs. Because of the circumstances surrounding his situation, he might be more valuable to the Sox as a rostered player than he would be in any trade.

Besides Dunn, the first guy I think of in terms of bad money on this team is Danks. He's obviously the other completely immovable object on the roster.
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  #42  
Old 04-29-2013, 01:14 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Because it is April 28. Only a coward gives up 24 games into a 162-game season.
Even Marlins and Astros fans?
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  #43  
Old 04-29-2013, 01:18 AM
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I think Rios has a reputation around baseball as having a "don't-give-a-****" attitude. I don't know how eager other clubs would be to add him to their clubhouse midseason. Obviously just speculating, but I would guess the Sox would have to eat some of that contract to deal him.
We'll see, but you're talking about only a 1 1/2 year commitment to the guy, and whatever attitude problems, the guy's still hit .301/.338/.519 the last 2 seasons and has been in the Top 3 in the AL Power/Speed # for 3 of the last 4 seasons. He's still quite a talented player.

I forgot about Danks. You're right he's dead weight right now.
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  #44  
Old 04-29-2013, 05:20 AM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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PK can go and still get resigned in the winter.

I like that list minus Beckham plus Alexei.
I just don't know about Alexei, he's a full fledged vet now and I just don't see a guy who has figured out what hitting is all about, I see him coming out of his shoes on every swing. I was hoping by now he would turn into a Jeter type hitter. Maybe we can make PK a playing-hitting coach, the man knows how to hit.
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  #45  
Old 04-29-2013, 09:36 AM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Not alot of teams can handle losing 2 starters out of rotation (Danks, Floyd) + 2 starting position players (Viciedo, Beckham)- especially a team as thin in overall org talent as the Sox.

The quality (lack of) of our call ups in this situation and the fact that D. Wise is on the roster are a complete indictment of the last 4 years of the KW era (2009-2012).

I'm not ready to hold Hand accountable (yet)- he has very little to work with- at the 40 man roster level or as far as trade bait goes, etc.

So many misses by Williams (pun intended)- Adam Dunn, Tyler Flowers, Jared Mitchell, Nestor Molina, Brett Morel, Zach Stewart, Simon Castro, Trayce Thompson, Keenyn Walker,etc. It has been many years since a major KW move really paid off- poor trades , poor FA signings, poor draft choices (excluding Sale).
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