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  #16  
Old 04-27-2013, 08:17 PM
34rancher 34rancher is offline
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Originally Posted by Bob Roarman View Post
The A's idea behind this was to be as competitive as they could be with a limited budget, not build a dynasty. This continually gets overlooked when these debates arise.
So they aimed to be tallest midget? if you're not playing to win, then it doesn't mean anything. If you're just trying to compete then you shouldn't be a major league team. When you've won 1 playoff series in last 20 years, you're not really competitive either.
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  #17  
Old 04-27-2013, 08:26 PM
Bob Roarman Bob Roarman is offline
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No it's just called being realistic.
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  #18  
Old 04-27-2013, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Roarman View Post
The A's idea behind this was to be as competitive as they could be with a limited budget, not build a dynasty. This continually gets overlooked when these debates arise.
And for the most part during Beane's tenure, they've failed at even that.
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  #19  
Old 04-27-2013, 08:48 PM
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Baseball stats tell us what has happened in the past and cannot predict the future because conditions are 100% dynamic. Stats can tell us what will happen if conditions are static. How many times have we heard about a stud player having a "bad game"? Did the stats predict when he will have a bad game? Of course not.

Stats give us a general picture of a player's current situation, but I would not rely on them too much to predict the future.
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  #20  
Old 04-27-2013, 09:43 PM
shingo10 shingo10 is offline
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Originally Posted by 34rancher View Post
So they aimed to be tallest midget? if you're not playing to win, then it doesn't mean anything. If you're just trying to compete then you shouldn't be a major league team. When you've won 1 playoff series in last 20 years, you're not really competitive either.

Spot on.

If we were judging "genius" on being competitive well then hell the Sox have a perennial also ran for many years. Maybe we should get a movie too. Except for the fact that we actually have won something.
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  #21  
Old 04-27-2013, 11:38 PM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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I think we could look at it like this: Kenny Williams used TWTW approach to help bring us a world series trophy by getting rid of guys like Carlos Lee and bringing in guys like Carl Everett. "Grinders" as they were called back then. Nothing novel about it, just a clever name given to it by Hawk.
Can we please stop giving this grinderball BS all the credit for the '05 team and appropriately credit the INCREDIBLE pitching staff the Sox had for the majority of the reason they won the World Series?
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  #22  
Old 04-28-2013, 12:29 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Pitching had a lot to do with it but so did over 200 home runs and finishing in the top quarter of the league in stolen bases, sacrifice bunts, sacrifice flys and infield hits.

Balance.

Lip
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  #23  
Old 04-28-2013, 12:35 AM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Pitching had a lot to do with it but so did over 200 home runs and finishing in the top quarter of the league in stolen bases, sacrifice bunts, sacrifice flys and infield hits.

Balance.

Lip
The Sox won because of their pitching. The offense was yes, "balanced," but it was also "not very good." The 4.57 RPG they scored in 2005 was good enough for 9th in the AL. Very rare for teams to finish the season with a below league average RPG and win the pennant. The offense was good enough to win because their pitching was incredible, but the pitching staff is what carried that team from Game 1 to 173.
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  #24  
Old 04-28-2013, 12:59 AM
CoopaLoop CoopaLoop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Pitching had a lot to do with it but so did over 200 home runs and finishing in the top quarter of the league in stolen bases, sacrifice bunts, sacrifice flys and infield hits.

Balance.

Lip
Pitching had pretty much everything to do with it.

Lol at being in the top of the league in sac bunts meaning anything.
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  #25  
Old 04-28-2013, 11:26 AM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
The Sox won because of their pitching. The offense was yes, "balanced," but it was also "not very good." The 4.57 RPG they scored in 2005 was good enough for 9th in the AL. Very rare for teams to finish the season with a below league average RPG and win the pennant. The offense was good enough to win because their pitching was incredible, but the pitching staff is what carried that team from Game 1 to 173.
Pitching is what carries every team that has success. Even Ozzie said "You can't win the Kentucky Derby riding a donkey." The pitching was undoubtedly the biggest factor in the 2005 White Sox success, but second to the pitching was the defense. The only real weak spot on the White Sox defense was left field and it's not like Pods killed you out there. That focus on defense was a 180 from the teams that Kenny used to run out there with Jose Valentine, Carl Everett and D'angelo Jimenez up the middle (I think that was also the year Kenny was quoted as saying he thought the offense would over come any defensive shortcomings).

The balance of the offense that year was the icing on the cake, they were able to execute so when we couldn't hit home runs we could still win games. The ability to move guys over (either by stealing bases, hit and runs or bunting) was what enabled the Sox to win so many one and two run games. We have seen the White Sox lose enough 1 and 2 run games of the past few years to demonstrate the value that the 2005 team's offense had.
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  #26  
Old 04-28-2013, 11:33 AM
soltrain21 soltrain21 is offline
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Originally Posted by 34rancher View Post
So they aimed to be tallest midget? if you're not playing to win, then it doesn't mean anything. If you're just trying to compete then you shouldn't be a major league team. When you've won 1 playoff series in last 20 years, you're not really competitive either.
They are the Oakland A's with a very small payroll. They actually were trying to be the tallest midget. What else could they do?
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  #27  
Old 04-28-2013, 11:42 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by CoopaLoop View Post
Pitching had pretty much everything to do with it.

Lol at being in the top of the league in sac bunts meaning anything.
Coopa:

It meant something because when the Sox weren't hitting home runs they were finding ways to get runs across anyway and bunting and infield hits, stolen bases and sac flys was part of that.

The best pitching in history doesn't win you anything if you can't score runs...the Sox could beat you in 2005 with a blast, a bloop or a bunt...so yes it does mean something.

Balance. (Compared to say this year's team...)

Lip
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  #28  
Old 04-28-2013, 11:53 AM
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asindc asindc is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Coopa:

It meant something because when the Sox weren't hitting home runs they were finding ways to get runs across anyway and bunting and infield hits, stolen bases and sac flys was part of that.

The best pitching in history doesn't win you anything if you can't score runs...the Sox could beat you in 2005 with a blast, a bloop or a bunt...so yes it does mean something.

Balance. (Compared to say this year's team...)

Lip
I find it odd ( to say the very least) that you would have to explain that.
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  #29  
Old 04-28-2013, 12:16 PM
MISoxfan MISoxfan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Coopa:

It meant something because when the Sox weren't hitting home runs they were finding ways to get runs across anyway and bunting and infield hits, stolen bases and sac flys was part of that.

The best pitching in history doesn't win you anything if you can't score runs...the Sox could beat you in 2005 with a blast, a bloop or a bunt...so yes it does mean something.

Balance. (Compared to say this year's team...)

Lip
The problem with this years offense isn't balance. They aren't really doing anything well at all. Sure they are 4th in the league in HR, but they are one bad game away from being 7th.

Do you think combining 2006 offense with the 2005 pitching results in a better or worse team than either team alone?
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  #30  
Old 04-28-2013, 12:16 PM
Milw Milw is offline
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Originally Posted by asindc View Post
I find it odd ( to say the very least) that you would have to explain that.
This is what the sabrmetrics revolution has done: It has created a generation of basaeball "experts" who look at the game in strictly data-driven terms, without regard for (or, in some cases, basic understanding of) the game's nuance.

I have the utmost respect for the numbers guys who say (and actually believe) that stats are a tool in the toolbox--that they help you see the game in a more three-dimensional-way. But nerds, understand this: When you laugh off things like sacrifice bunts, you sound just as moronic as the guys who think advanced stats are stupid.
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