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  #91  
Old 04-26-2013, 08:26 AM
Moses_Scurry Moses_Scurry is offline
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If the slogan is "the will to win", don't they have to, you know, win? Or is this one of those "ironic" things?
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  #92  
Old 04-26-2013, 09:24 AM
Stanley Stanley is offline
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Yeah, if they continue to struggle and are hovering around or below .500 for most of the year, it will be hard to stomach TWTW, especially for the players I'd imagine. Will they abandon it if the team is losing? That would be awkward...

I like seeing that Rios tweeted "#TWTW" right after the segment aired, and that the players seem to respond to it, as opposed to the "All In" slogan.
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  #93  
Old 04-26-2013, 09:28 AM
shingo10 shingo10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Roarman View Post
Well see that's different from what you said. You said he was more credible in the way he sees/calls the game. But at the same time you admit he hasn't been able to change with the game. So....yeah, you are going in circles. Only so many contradicting statements one can make.
Yes, I find Hawk Harrelson more credible than most other announcers. I think he is more credible in how he sees the game because of his unique perspective of being around for so long. That clear enough?

Tried to be respectful to your point of view but apparently you aren't willing to do the same. Stay classy.
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  #94  
Old 04-26-2013, 09:55 AM
TDog TDog is offline
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I don't think Harrelson was saying the White Sox as a team have the will to win. I think he was saying that to build a winner you have to have players who have the will to win.

Sabermetrics people had no problem with the Adam Dunn signing. Fans have since complained pretty much that he hasn't shown the will to win. Not having the will to win was something White Sox fans regularly accused Javier Vazquez of not having the will to win.

The reaction here seems to be as if Harrelson said the White Sox will prevail because they have the will to win. What I heard is what fans have always wanted to see from their teams, and what White Sox fans often complain they don't see from theirs.
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  #95  
Old 04-26-2013, 10:00 AM
soxnut1018 soxnut1018 is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Sabermetrics people had no problem with the Adam Dunn signing. Fans have since complained pretty much that he hasn't shown the will to win. Not having the will to win was something White Sox fans regularly accused Javier Vazquez of not having the will to win.
No, fans (sabermetric people included) have complained about him being awful. I don't give a crap about his will to win, I care that he hits home runs and gets on base.
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  #96  
Old 04-26-2013, 10:02 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanley View Post
Yeah, if they continue to struggle and are hovering around or below .500 for most of the year, it will be hard to stomach TWTW, especially for the players I'd imagine. Will they abandon it if the team is losing? That would be awkward...

I like seeing that Rios tweeted "#TWTW" right after the segment aired, and that the players seem to respond to it, as opposed to the "All In" slogan.
Maybe they mean Lip's magic 83 games, which as we all know is a good season!
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  #97  
Old 04-26-2013, 10:03 AM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Originally Posted by shingo10 View Post
Yes, I find Hawk Harrelson more credible than most other announcers. I think he is more credible in how he sees the game because of his unique perspective of being around for so long. That clear enough?

Tried to be respectful to your point of view but apparently you aren't willing to do the same. Stay classy.
No need to be snippy. You really were going in circles. You made the statement you made in this post and then sorta contradicted it elsewhere.
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  #98  
Old 04-26-2013, 10:20 AM
SCCWS SCCWS is offline
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I saw a brief discussion on ESPN about Dunn from Reynolds and Plesac last night. They mentioned that Dunn went from the terrible 2011 to the "improved" 2012. They even laughed that last year was considered a great improvement since 2011 was so bad. But they wonder if the poor start this year will be a huge mental block for him since he is in 2011 mode only worse so far.

Speaking of sabremetrics----how about the NFL Draft. They live and die by sprint speeds, arm lengths, lifts etc. Everbody seems to be pigeon-holed by statistics.
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  #99  
Old 04-26-2013, 10:27 AM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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I think if you're not using both traditional and sabermetrics, you are missing the boat.

One question about sabermetrics regarding WAR. That seems like the number so many people use as an end all. Has anyone ever added up every teams individual WAR and put them into standings at the end of the season? And if they have, how do they match the actual results?
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  #100  
Old 04-26-2013, 10:29 AM
shingo10 shingo10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
No need to be snippy. You really were going in circles. You made the statement you made in this post and then sorta contradicted it elsewhere.

Fair enough.
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  #101  
Old 04-26-2013, 12:05 PM
hawkjt hawkjt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
I think if you're not using both traditional and sabermetrics, you are missing the boat.

One question about sabermetrics regarding WAR. That seems like the number so many people use as an end all. Has anyone ever added up every teams individual WAR and put them into standings at the end of the season? And if they have, how do they match the actual results?

Hawk is not the Sox GM so he is not making player personnel decisions,so his opinions on stats vs eyetest do not impact the Sox on the field...all that really matters.

I find WAR to be a very unwielding way of assessing how a player is playing at the current time. It seems like the sabermetricians reject players ''getting hot'' and assume all production is completely random. I disagree. They do not value ''clutch'' hitting or believe certain players are better than others in those situations. They do not believe that RBI is a valid stat,because it is all random....this is why I reject some of their hardline beliefs.

Hawk is no better or worse than these folks...he believes in the eyeball test...as do I. Hawk is a story teller as a play by play guy,and while it can be tiresome, I still like it better than the cold fish approach from the newer generation.
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  #102  
Old 04-26-2013, 12:28 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Here is my problem with this and it is a big one:

Hawk is publicly bashing SABR and its effectiveness. Our GM, Rick Hahn, is a SABR guy. So he is really throwing Rick under the bus, without even realizing it.

Hawk continues to sound like an old, clueless fool.

He is costing the Sox fans, and he embarrassing our team.
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  #103  
Old 04-26-2013, 12:31 PM
CoopaLoop CoopaLoop is offline
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Scanned quickly and didn't see a link to this. Anyone got one?
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  #104  
Old 04-26-2013, 12:35 PM
Stanley Stanley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkjt View Post
Hawk is no better or worse than these folks...he believes in the eyeball test...as do I. Hawk is a story teller as a play by play guy,and while it can be tiresome, I still like it better than the cold fish approach from the newer generation.
I wouldn't say Hawk follows the old approach as much as he does his own very peculiar and tiresome one. He exists in a league of his own considering the dreadful silences, the pouting when losing, the pettiness, and so on and so on.

Baseball announcers have one of the best jobs in the world, IMO, and Steve Stone tried to stress as much at the end of last season with his parting words: "You have to enjoy what you do". I often wish there would be an influx of new announcers that think outside the box and have fresh ideas on how to draw people into the game and make it more exciting for the average fan and the more hardcore, as well. When I do watch other broadcasts in different cities I'm not usually overwhelmed by the creativity and lucidity in which they call a game, but in contrast I'm often really embarrassed when I'm reminded of White Sox announcer situation.
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  #105  
Old 04-26-2013, 01:46 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soxnut1018 View Post
No, fans (sabermetric people included) have complained about him being awful. I don't give a crap about his will to win, I care that he hits home runs and gets on base.
Again, I don't think Harrelson was talking about players being crappy but having the will to win.

The point being glossed over is that free agents who are signed to big contracts after posting numbers often never come close to posting those numbers again. If Adam Dunn is crappy after his signing initially excited people who liked his pre-signing numbers, it's either that the numbers didn't provide enough information about Dunn to justify the signing and he should have been scouted more thoroughly during his last season in Washington or he was playing to get the big contract and after signing it lacked the will to win (or perhaps a combination of both). Complaining about Dunn having crappy numbers, career bad by a wide-margin into his third year after signing a huge contract is the sort of thing I think Harrelson was talking about when he was talking about the will to win. Really, I thought that was obvious.

Because Harrelson didn't call out any players, and I believe it would have been wrong for him to do so, people seem to think he was talking about taking about wanting to go into the season with a bunch of Rodney McCrays running through walls. I think it is more inaccurate to read a defense of the White Sox philosophy into his statements, as if the White Sox signed Adam Dunn because they believed he was put up crappy numbers that didn't matter becuase he has the will to win.

Harry Caray, the White Sox Harry Caray, not the one who lacked the will to be an honest and even entertainingly offensive broadcaster after signing for the big bucks with the Cubs, would have said the same thing. But he would have named names and left no room for ambiguity.
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