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  #121  
Old 04-14-2013, 04:25 PM
35th and Shields 35th and Shields is offline
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A better example would be the Edwin Jackson for Hudson trade. Fairly lateral move and going after a name rather than looking at the big picture, future success. Hudson may never end up being a great pitcher, but I still hate that trade.
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  #122  
Old 04-14-2013, 04:55 PM
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JB98 JB98 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurr View Post
How good may Chris Young, Ryan Sweeney, Gio Gonzalez and the bunch have been if given some consistent guidance together?

Could they have been the core of the roster, alongside Sale?

Did we really need to dump Clayton Richard for Jake Peavy, who is seldom more than a name anymore?

This team tried to play the Yankees game and found out that they weren't able to compete.
Personally, I thought Peavy had an excellent 2012. I'd rather have Peavy than Richard.
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  #123  
Old 04-14-2013, 05:43 PM
Jurr Jurr is offline
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Jurr:

When Richard was with the Sox he usually could not get out of the 5th inning and his ERA was in the upper's 4's...mid 5's.

That's not good anyway you slice it.

Lip
Bad example. I get it.

I still stand behind the sentiment.
This team is without a firm sense of itself- a squad of mercenaries.
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  #124  
Old 04-14-2013, 06:19 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Jurr:

I agree with your last statement, this team always seems to be "caught in the middle" whatever words you want to use. From the overall philosophy, to the talent on the field to revenues...you name it.

I honestly think if this season goes south by June, Hahn will not be afraid to blow it up, start getting guys traded and start over.

The question is though is he and this organization which has not done a good job in the minor league system for 13 years or so able to pull that off? and will any fans still be around if they do say five years down the road??

Lip
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  #125  
Old 04-14-2013, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Jurr View Post
Bad example. I get it.

I still stand behind the sentiment.
This team is without a firm sense of itself- a squad of mercenaries.
This is a statement I agree with. More often than not, the Sox have to go outside their organization to fix weaknesses. It's hard to win every trade, ya know?
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  #126  
Old 04-14-2013, 08:44 PM
Jurr Jurr is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Jurr:

I agree with your last statement, this team always seems to be "caught in the middle" whatever words you want to use. From the overall philosophy, to the talent on the field to revenues...you name it.

I honestly think if this season goes south by June, Hahn will not be afraid to blow it up, start getting guys traded and start over.

The question is though is he and this organization which has not done a good job in the minor league system for 13 years or so able to pull that off? and will any fans still be around if they do say five years down the road??

Lip
Well, Mark, the franchise survived the late 80's. Fans will show up if the team becomes a winner. Hell, I think that Sox fans will show up if the team shows any sort of a pulse with young guys. It's the teams loaded with high priced vets without a pulse that turns fans off. That route provides no hope for the future.

Pittsburgh has a terrible track record with its baseball teams for the past two decades, yet the fans are flocking back to the stadium because the team finally has young players that are exciting. The guys fly around the stadium with a ton of energy, and they are scrappy. Are they winners? Not yet. However, the team has a pulse, and that draws fans.
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  #127  
Old 04-15-2013, 11:34 AM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Well, Mark, the franchise survived the late 80's. Fans will show up if the team becomes a winner. Hell, I think that Sox fans will show up if the team shows any sort of a pulse with young guys. It's the teams loaded with high priced vets without a pulse that turns fans off. That route provides no hope for the future.

Pittsburgh has a terrible track record with its baseball teams for the past two decades, yet the fans are flocking back to the stadium because the team finally has young players that are exciting. The guys fly around the stadium with a ton of energy, and they are scrappy. Are they winners? Not yet. However, the team has a pulse, and that draws fans.
If the Pirates keep up their current pace, which involves opening day, (they are 30k behind last year at the same point), they will draw what the Sox drew last season. They aren't exactly flocking back to the stadium.
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  #128  
Old 04-15-2013, 11:44 AM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurr View Post
Bad example. I get it.

I still stand behind the sentiment.
This team is without a firm sense of itself- a squad of mercenaries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
This is a statement I agree with. More often than not, the Sox have to go outside their organization to fix weaknesses. It's hard to win every trade, ya know?
What's killing this team is that they're relying heavily on "under the radar" mercenaries to carry them to the playoffs.

We can't win hardly any trades anymore since this organization doesn't have enough prospects that anyone might be interested in.

Here's a look at the some of the 2005 team and how the Sox acquired them:

1B - Konerko (via trade for Sox farm product Cameron in '99)
2B - Iguchi (Japanese free agent)
SS - Uribe (via trade for Rule 5 acquisition Aaron Miles)
3B - Crede (drafted by the Sox in '96)
RF - Dye ("under the radar" FA)
CF - Rowand (drafted by the Sox in '98)
LF - Pods (via trade for Sox farm product Carlos Lee)
C - AJ ("under the radar" FA)
DH - Thomas (drafted by the Sox)
DH - Everett (FA)
P - Buehrle (drafted by the Sox in '98)
P - Contreras (via trade for Loaiza)
P - Garcia (via trade for Sox farm products Olivo, Michael Morse, Reed)
P - Garland (robbed Cubs totally blind trade in '98)
P - El Duque ("under the radar" FA)
P - McCarthy (drafted by Sox in '02)

(2004's team also featured Sox farm product Magglio Ordonez.) A good number of key players from 2005 team were either from the Sox system or acquired thanks to trades for Sox system products. Note that these Sox products weren't just barely passable at the MLB level, these were a bunch of solid players. That's the difference between the "2004-2006 era" and the current "let's hope we surprise everyone" approach of the last 5 years.

What position players have Sox drafted in the last 10 years or so that are above average MLB quality either for our team or as trade bait? Once the talent from before the Sox let their system turn to crap moved on, KW was left trying to win with smoke and mirrors or devoting a big chunk of the payroll to players like Dunn and Peavy. Easily the best player the Sox have drafted in the last 10 years who has succeeded at the MLB level is Chris Sale. Addison Reed looks like a success to. The Sox do have Hawkins in the pipeline and he might be a star someday. But a couple of successful players after years of Brian Anderson and Josh Fields type players isn't enough.

The problem with the Sox is that the people that brought us this mess over the last 10 years are still firmly in charge. KW didn't go anywhere. Hahn was part of the senior management team that presided over the decline of this franchise. Why should fans expect anything to change any time soon?

EDIT: The Sox also drafted Gio Gonzalez within the last 10 years (2004). He was used to acquire Thome for the 2006 season. Incredibly the Phillies gave him back to us in the Floyd-Garcia trade, but then we gave him away to Oakland for a pouting circus clown.
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  #129  
Old 04-15-2013, 11:57 AM
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doublem23 doublem23 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurr View Post
How good may Chris Young, Ryan Sweeney, Gio Gonzalez and the bunch have been if given some consistent guidance together?

Could they have been the core of the roster, alongside Sale?

Did we really need to dump Clayton Richard for Jake Peavy, who is seldom more than a name anymore?

This team tried to play the Yankees game and found out that they weren't able to compete.
The nice thing about having no prospects is there are very few trades you look back on and regret. Young, Sweeney, and Richard are all terrible baseball players, and if you put them in this lineup and replace our "mercenaries" De Aza, Rios, and Peavy... you can probably very easily drop another 10 wins off this team's expected total. Even holding on to Gio probably wouldn't make up the damage.
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  #130  
Old 04-15-2013, 01:39 PM
kobo kobo is offline
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I would love it as well, but if they went to the playoffs 2 or 3 years in a row and didn't win it all, the next excuse is making the playoffs isn't good enough. Just like it was in 2008.
I completely disagree with this statement. Sure, there might be some die-hards or meatheads that would say this but I think the majority of fans, including the coveted casual fans, would be extremely excited if the Sox made the playoffs several years in a row. Seeing as how this is something that has NEVER happened in the entire existence of this franchise how could one not be excited??

There is nothing, currently, to be excited about with this team. There is no superstar, no can't miss prospect being touted, absolutely nothing to look forward to. The organization seems to be content with how the team is being run and has been pointed out several times already why should they change anything if it keeps being profitable? The organization continues to treat fans like we know nothing or understand nothing about what is going on with the team. The continued lack of direction this team seemingly has is more of a detriment than I think they realize. At least the Cubs have a plan. It might not work in the end but at least they have a direction and their fans at least have some hope for the future. A of now, what do any of us have to look forward to as Sox fans?
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  #131  
Old 04-15-2013, 01:47 PM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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I completely disagree with this statement. Sure, there might be some die-hards or meatheads that would say this but I think the majority of fans, including the coveted casual fans, would be extremely excited if the Sox made the playoffs several years in a row. Seeing as how this is something that has NEVER happened in the entire existence of this franchise how could one not be excited??

There is nothing, currently, to be excited about with this team. There is no superstar, no can't miss prospect being touted, absolutely nothing to look forward to. The organization seems to be content with how the team is being run and has been pointed out several times already why should they change anything if it keeps being profitable? The organization continues to treat fans like we know nothing or understand nothing about what is going on with the team. The continued lack of direction this team seemingly has is more of a detriment than I think they realize. At least the Cubs have a plan. It might not work in the end but at least they have a direction and their fans at least have some hope for the future. A of now, what do any of us have to look forward to as Sox fans?
I do see a change in philosophy that goes back to about mid- 2011- they've stopped trading off prospects for veterans- and with Hahn in charge- I see them moving away from the big free swingers that KW loved. I'll give them some credit for the young arms that came along last year (Sale, Reed, Jones, Qunitana, Santiago, Veal)- but it's clear that there is very little after that "wave" of talent.

Looking at our Charlotte and Birmingham rosters- they are a real indictment of the final years of the KW era- almost nothing there other than a few outfield prospects. With PK and TCM in their final contract years- 2014 could be pretty ugly- not that 2013 is looking so hot.
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  #132  
Old 04-16-2013, 08:05 AM
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With PK and TCM in their final contract years- 2014 could be pretty ugly- not that 2013 is looking so hot.
Alexei is signed through 2015 with a team option for 2016
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  #133  
Old 04-16-2013, 08:12 AM
TomBradley72 TomBradley72 is offline
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Alexei is signed through 2015 with a team option for 2016
Good to know- one MLB commentator said he was in his "walk year"- guess not.

I guess we have TCM + Rios to build around for 2014-
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  #134  
Old 04-16-2013, 08:17 AM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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Just a suggestion, but why not move the fences back? I know there is room behind the gaps and straightaway, the corners would be more tricky.

Too much long ball focus, from the roster makeup to the way the players approach at-bats. Maybe if the launching pad aspects of the park are minimized a bit, that could lead to more balance and help out our pitchers.
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  #135  
Old 04-16-2013, 08:45 AM
GoSox2K3 GoSox2K3 is offline
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Originally Posted by kobo View Post
I completely disagree with this statement. Sure, there might be some die-hards or meatheads that would say this but I think the majority of fans, including the coveted casual fans, would be extremely excited if the Sox made the playoffs several years in a row. Seeing as how this is something that has NEVER happened in the entire existence of this franchise how could one not be excited??

There is nothing, currently, to be excited about with this team. There is no superstar, no can't miss prospect being touted, absolutely nothing to look forward to. The organization seems to be content with how the team is being run and has been pointed out several times already why should they change anything if it keeps being profitable? The organization continues to treat fans like we know nothing or understand nothing about what is going on with the team. The continued lack of direction this team seemingly has is more of a detriment than I think they realize. At least the Cubs have a plan. It might not work in the end but at least they have a direction and their fans at least have some hope for the future. A of now, what do any of us have to look forward to as Sox fans?
Exactly. It's just an easy, unprovable argument to just say that Sox fans would still "make excuses" for not going to games even if the team made the playoffs 3 seasons in a row. Since this has never happened, there's no basis for this slam on Sox fans. But, I guess some people just want to rip on Sox fans can call them lousy fans. Whatever makes them feel better about themselves I guess.

How about let's see the Sox be a playoff team several years in a row before we start making these kind of claims as if they were facts?

You're absolutely right, one big problem is that there is nothing to get excited about for this team. Konerko is their only "star" and he's fading. There is no other stand-out stars (maybe Sale will move into that role if he continues last year's success) and there's almost no young talent in the immediate future to look forward to.

It's sad that people here have to keep harping on attendance when it's obvious the problem over the last 5 years is the disappointing and lackluster way this team has operated off the field and performed on the field. But, let's blame the fans!

Let's look back at what happened since 2008:
2009 - the team stumbles to 6.5 games out by May 21, makes their typical June/July run back to contention and then gets spanked by the Twins and falls as far as 9.5 out by September. MLB avg attendance is down 7% over the previous season.

2010 - Sox again fall on their face right out of the gate: 6 games out by April 21 and down to 9.5 out by June 9. Then they make a crazy run back to first only to collapse to the Twins again in Aug/Sept. and fall as far as 12 games out in Sept. This was also the year that Ozzie didn't want Thome back despite his request to come back at a bargain price. We go with Kotsay and Jones at DH instead and Thome gets the last laugh.

2011 - An utterly unlikeable team. Once they were behind in a game, it was essentially over. Ozzie quit on this team and only an idiot would expect fans to turn out to see this debacle. KW throws money at one-dimensional Dunn and he's a colossal flop.

2012 - Sox management pretty much concedes they're not going to compete in '12. The Sox say goodbye to Buehrle and Quentin and say they're hamstrung by payroll. KW hires a man with zero professional coaching experience as a manager. The farm system is barren and there's not much talent in sight from the minors. Offseason season ticket and advance sales are poor. The team surprises and is in 1st place most of the summer before once again fading at the end and the season ends with another disappointment.

If Sox management is looking at what transpired over this time frame and is blaming the team's predicament on the fans for not suddenly packing the Cell for that 3 months in 2012 - then I think they're so blind to reality that it's going to be a long, long time before this team is consistently competitive.
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