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  #106  
Old 04-13-2013, 04:16 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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The last five years have been marred with stupid trades, stupid contracts, and stupid teams that have no heart or concept of situational baseball. Despite themselves, they almost won a division last year in a HORRIBLY down year in the ALC.

This product is just so stale.
Yet a large contingent of huge Sox fans and frequent WSI posters don't seem to think there's much wrong with this model because (1) they won a WS in 2005 with a patchwork team; (2) the WS is "all luck"; (3) they make the playoffs 3 times a decade; (4) the best on paper teams don't automatically do best.

More depressing than the organizational philosophy is that we let them sway us into thinking it's OK. I mean, we're not going to not be fans, so I guess this is maybe just some people's coping mechanism? I mean, every fanbase likes to think, "This could be the year," otherwise, what's the point? But please, step back and realize what the Sox have been doing every year in the past lord-knows-how-long (except 2006, which just didn't work out, but was the best they have done to position themselves for success in my lifetime) just sucks.
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  #107  
Old 04-13-2013, 05:59 PM
Golden Sox Golden Sox is offline
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fram40: It depresses me when I read the White Sox drafted Mitchell instead of Trout. Trout would of made a huge difference to the White Sox franchise.
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  #108  
Old 04-13-2013, 06:08 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Originally Posted by kittle42 View Post
Yet a large contingent of huge Sox fans and frequent WSI posters don't seem to think there's much wrong with this model because (1) they won a WS in 2005 with a patchwork team; (2) the WS is "all luck"; (3) they make the playoffs 3 times a decade; (4) the best on paper teams don't automatically do best.

More depressing than the organizational philosophy is that we let them sway us into thinking it's OK. I mean, we're not going to not be fans, so I guess this is maybe just some people's coping mechanism? I mean, every fanbase likes to think, "This could be the year," otherwise, what's the point? But please, step back and realize what the Sox have been doing every year in the past lord-knows-how-long (except 2006, which just didn't work out, but was the best they have done to position themselves for success in my lifetime) just sucks.
But how are they going to rebuild from the bottom? If you have a big problem with how they evaluate players, how they call up guys too fast...how do you expect them to build an entire team ?

Perpetual rebuilding doesn't work. I know the Rays are a model a lot of people here want to be like, but they lost 90 games 10 years straight and have not won a WS, so using the same criteria people are using for the Sox, although they have a nice team, the Rays fail, and since nobody goes to their games, they don't understand the fans. Their attendance problems are easily solvable as long as they make they playoffs 3 or 4 years in a row.

There is no doubt the Sox should have been better since 2005, but I don't think it was the philosophy that failed. It was the execution of that philosophy. They paid enough to have a good roster. They paid the wrong guys. There were plenty of good players available even when they were drafting late. They missed Trout. They missed Pedroia. This way can be very successful,but just like rebuilding entirely, it has to be done right.
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  #109  
Old 04-13-2013, 10:05 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Dick:

Completely valid points on your part which I guess gets back to my original post...perhaps it's time for new ownership and a completely new front office. Fresh eyes, fresh ideas.

Lip
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  #110  
Old 04-13-2013, 10:48 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Jurr:

That's not entirely true. In the early part of the new century the Sox had a number of guys...Thomas, Ordonez, Lee, Konerko who'd all bash 25-40 home runs and hit between .270 and .320.

The problem is though hitters like that are scarce. To be able to get three, four, five of them in the same lineup at the same time takes some luck and probably a payroll today far beyond the Sox means.

Lip
Look at those names and you'll find your real answer. It's not payroll, it's organization. Three of those players came up in the Sox organization. The fourth was a trade for a player of a similar background (1 or 2 years in the majors, one off year).
Has the Sox organization produced any hitters like that since then?
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  #111  
Old 04-13-2013, 11:10 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
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Look at those names and you'll find your real answer. It's not payroll, it's organization. Three of those players came up in the Sox organization. The fourth was a trade for a player of a similar background (1 or 2 years in the majors, one off year).
Has the Sox organization produced any hitters like that since then?
Frank Thomas was a once-in-a-generation type hitter. Not only did he rank amongst the game's most dangerous power hitters, but he also hit above .300, and had the best batting eye in the American League. When he was at his best, he was perhaps the most dangerous hitter on the entire planet, a distinction shared only by Barry Bonds, a known cheater. The only thing that will keep Thomas- a deserving first-ballot HOF'er- out of Cooperstown next winter is the incompetence of the baseball writers. His numbers more than warrant his inclusion amongst the game's elite. Only Manny Ramirez Albert Pujols, and Miguel Cabrera have approached his level of production from the right side, so expecting them to produce a hitter of that magnitude is probably asking too much. Let's look at the other guys listed.

Magglio Ordonez was one of the best outfielders in the American League, and posted near-MVP caliber numbers when he was at his best. I'd compare him to someone like Matt Holiday (when younger), or perhaps a less talented Justin Upton or Matt Kemp. Each of these men has played to at least an AS level in his career. It's easier to find these types of players than it is a HOF'er like Frank, but still difficult.

Paul Konerko has been one of the most consistent run-producers in baseball for the past fifteen years. It's hard to pick out his best season, because each year seems to look like the one before it, which is a testament to Konerko's longevity. Just the other day, he moved past Frank Thomas on the White Sox all-time hit list. He reminds me of a right-handed Fred McGriff in that he's almost always been productive, but he's never been more than a peripheral MVP candidate, and his numbers are somewhat inflated by his long career. Be that as it may, it's hard to find players who are as consistent and durable as Konerko, who deserves to have his number retired when his career is over.

Carlos Lee was often viewed as the third or fourth wheel of the Sox offense behind Thomas, Ordonez, and Konerko. He was an excellent hitter when he was swinging the bat well, but much of his success hinged upon where he was hitting in the lineup. He did his best work in 2003, when he hit directly in front of Frank Thomas, somewhat ironic given that Frank actually compared Carlos to himself when Lee joined the team as a rookie in 1999. Carlos never approach Frank's production, however, largely due to a poor approach at the plate, perhaps the most significant reason for his inconsistency as a hitter.

There seem to be similarities between Carlos and Dayan Viciedo, though the Tank is even less disciplined than Lee, who could be patient enough to take walks if he didn't see a pitch he liked. Like El Caballo, Viciedo will probably never be the centerpiece of the Sox offense, but he will be counted on for production. Can he provide that production on a consistent basis? Only time will tell.
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  #112  
Old 04-13-2013, 11:22 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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yea, it's hard to find Thomas (1st ballot HOF) Konerko and Magglio type players....but we haven't produced many who could just be termed above-average regulars, with an occasional all-star appearance. And we tend to rush those that look promising, which might stunt their development (debatable).
Nor have we produced enough prospects that look like they might be good MLB players so that we could trade them (we've produced a few, but the trades were usually flubbed). You've got to have a farm system that churns out some talent.
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  #113  
Old 04-13-2013, 11:38 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
yea, it's hard to find Thomas (1st ballot HOF) Konerko and Magglio type players....but we haven't produced many who could just be termed above-average regulars, with an occasional all-star appearance. And we tend to rush those that look promising, which might stunt their development (debatable).
Nor have we produced enough prospects that look like they might be good MLB players so that we could trade them (we've produced a few, but the trades were usually flubbed). You've got to have a farm system that churns out some talent.
I read this line and immediately thought about Courtney Hawkins. As well as he's played, I hope the Sox aren't trying to promote him as fast as possible to justify his selection as the thirteenth overall pick. He's nineteen years old. Mike Trout made his MLB debut at nineteen, but he struggled during his first appearance with the Angels. He was remarkably better last season, as everyone who follows baseball knows.

I would be thrilled if Hawkins played anywhere near as well as Trout did last season, but I'll settle for a competent Major League outfielder who can provide consistent production at the plate.
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  #114  
Old 04-14-2013, 08:57 AM
Jurr Jurr is offline
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How good may Chris Young, Ryan Sweeney, Gio Gonzalez and the bunch have been if given some consistent guidance together?

Could they have been the core of the roster, alongside Sale?

Did we really need to dump Clayton Richard for Jake Peavy, who is seldom more than a name anymore?

This team tried to play the Yankees game and found out that they weren't able to compete.
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  #115  
Old 04-14-2013, 10:17 AM
SCCWS SCCWS is offline
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Since I am a longtime ( 50 years) White Sox fan living in New England and Florida, I see the Red Sox and Tampa Bay a lot.
Tampa Bay built a team by losing and getting high draft picks. But I give them credit because they drafted quality and developed them as well. But I am not convinced they will ever draw fans because the fan base is made up of too many transplants with loyalties to other teams.
Last year was Boston's first losing season since 1997. The Red Sox spend tons of money in free agencyand make many trades. But the big difference between them and the White Sox is their farm system. They always have players in the pipeline regardless of poor draft position. Both everyday players and pitchers. I think the White Sox have had success the last few years developing pitchers but it seems they never develop good everyday players. Since they won their 2005 WS, who are "good" everyday players ( on any ML roster) the White Sox have developed? In that same timeframe, the Red Sox have brought to the majors Pedroia-Ellsbury-Middlebrooks-Hanley Ramirez-Josh Reddick-Anthony Rizzo just to name a few. They have added 2 more home grown players on this year's roster. So despite winning ML records they continue to produce good drafts.
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  #116  
Old 04-14-2013, 11:35 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Jurr:

Richard was medocire at best with the Sox. He's nothing special even with San Diego. Keep in mind the park he pitched half his games in.

Lip
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  #117  
Old 04-14-2013, 12:37 PM
kittle42 kittle42 is offline
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Quote:
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Did we really need to dump Clayton Richard for Jake Peavy, who is seldom more than a name anymore?
Wait, wait, wait. Clayton Richard is ****ing horrible.
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  #118  
Old 04-14-2013, 02:44 PM
Mr. Jinx Mr. Jinx is offline
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Wait, wait, wait. Clayton Richard is ****ing horrible.
Yeah, there's a very valid argument that the Sox wasted money trading for Peavy that could have been better used.. However, they gave up garbage for him.
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  #119  
Old 04-14-2013, 02:59 PM
Jurr Jurr is offline
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How was Richard's progress under Don Cooper?
I believe he was rounding into a decent pitcher.

Whatever...I am discussing as an EXAMPLE the idea of keeping young players, building a clubhouse culture, THEN augmenting that culture with some free agents.

The other way around has been a debacle.
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  #120  
Old 04-14-2013, 03:22 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Jurr:

When Richard was with the Sox he usually could not get out of the 5th inning and his ERA was in the upper's 4's...mid 5's.

That's not good anyway you slice it.

Lip
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