TCQ charges Greinke in SD and the benches clear!

[voodoochile]

Originally Posted by blandman

Just so we're all clear here, telling a victim of violence it's their fault because they should/could/maybe it was an option to run away? Not exactly PC...

This is drivel...

It has NOTHING to do with what happened. It's so completely off base as to be meaningless...

[WhiteSox5187]

Originally Posted by spawn

Yep...he chose confrontation over avoidance. And it cost him.

Again, Quentin was already walking towards the mound. The situation had already escalated and from every video I have seen Greinke's initial response seemed to be a raise of his head and say something, not shout it. Quentin then started running towards the mound, by that point there was nothing anyone could do to stop the fight. Greinke did throw his glove aside.

There is a sort of macho element that was at play here obviously. I get the sort of psychological need for a pitcher to feel bulletproof and that he owns the plate or the mound or whatever. When a batter is charging the pitcher, he can't just run away. He shouldn't throw his glove aside and get ready to throw down though either, really all he can do is hope that the catcher can get in between him and the batter.

[RKMeibalane]

Originally Posted by voodoochile

This is drivel...

It has NOTHING to do with what happened. It's so completely off base as to be meaningless...

I don't think it's meaningless, but I do agree that it's far enough off base that it doesn't have anything to do with the matter at hand.

[spawn]

Originally Posted by voodoochile

This is drivel...

It has NOTHING to do with what happened. It's so completely off base as to be meaningless...

Yes, but it fits munch's view that Greinke was this hapless victim that didn't see it coming.

If Greinke had been despondent, turned his back, and Quentin attacked...then yes. Victim. That's not at all what happened.

[WhiteSox5187]

Originally Posted by RKMeibalane

Watch the video again. He clearly says something. I'm not as skilled at reading lips as VC, but it does look like he's saying, "What?" There's no question he spoke.

I think the question is how did he say it. He clearly says two things. The first is when Quentin is walking towards him and he did not appear to be shouting in that video. When Quentin starts running at him, Greinke throws his glove aside and says something else.

[spawn]

Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187

Again, Quentin was already walking towards the mound. The situation had already escalated and from every video I have seen Greinke's initial response seemed to be a raise of his head and say something, not shout it. Quentin then started running towards the mound, by that point there was nothing anyone could do to stop the fight. Greinke did throw his glove aside.

He could've either started backpedalling or running the other way. He threw his glove aside, and lowered his shoulder. He wasn't a hapless victim. He welcomed the confrontation. He didn't back down. He's not a victim.

[RKMeibalane]

Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187

Again, Quentin was already walking towards the mound. The situation had already escalated and from every video I have seen Greinke's initial response seemed to be a raise of his head and say something, not shout it. Quentin then started running towards the mound, by that point there was nothing anyone could do to stop the fight. Greinke did throw his glove aside.

There was time for him to back away, albeit not more than a few seconds.

Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187

There is a sort of macho element that was at play here obviously. I get the sort of psychological need for a pitcher to feel bulletproof and that he owns the plate or the mound or whatever. When a batter is charging the pitcher, he can't just run away. He shouldn't throw his glove aside and get ready to throw down though either, really all he can do is hope that the catcher can get in between him and the batter.

I understand the point you're making here, and I actually don't disagree with it. What I have a problem with is that Greinke exposed his shoulder to TCQ while the latter was charging the mound. If he had assumed a proper defensive stance, it's likely his collarbone remains in one piece. He didn't do that.

[RKMeibalane]

Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187

I think the question is how did he say it. He clearly says two things. The first is when Quentin is walking towards him and he did not appear to be shouting in that video. When Quentin starts running at him, Greinke throws his glove aside and says something else.

Well, TCQ says he didn't hear what was said, so the "how" of the situation doesn't matter. What does matter is that Greinke clearly says a word to Carlos before Quentin attacks him. It's possible that was enough to provoke Carlos, especially if he was already spoiling for a fight. I can believe he thought about fighting Greike. I don't for one moment believe munch's claims that he set up the entire thing.

I also don't entirely believe Quentin's version of events (I've spent the entire day tearing him apart on this board for his stupidity, and Paul Konerko, as well, for defending him), but Greinke isn't blameless. He was there. He could have handled things differently, but he chose to open his mouth, and he chose to leave himself vulnerable to injury.

[WhiteSox5187]

Originally Posted by spawn

He could've either started backpedalling or running the other way. He threw his glove aside, and lowered his shoulder. He wasn't a hapless victim. He welcomed the confrontation. He didn't back down. He's not a victim.

By the time Greinke threw his glove to the side, Quentin was charging at him full steam. So no, he is not a "victim" per se but he is not the instigator either.

Originally Posted by RKMeibalane

There was time for him to back away, albeit not more than a few seconds.



I understand the point you're making here, and I actually don't disagree with it. What I have a problem with is that Greinke exposed his shoulder to TCQ while the latter was charging the mound. If he had assumed a proper defensive stance, it's likely his collarbone remains in one piece. He didn't do that.

Yea, I agree with your point that lowering his shoulder was stupid. I am not sure that he knew what the proper defensive stance was though and instinct probably took over. Unless a pitcher has a background in karate or wrestling (like Kyle Farnsworth), they are kind of defenseless at that point. I remember seeing Pedro backpedal and throw his glove at the guy who was charging him when he was with the Expos. I think that was after Pedro just lost a perfect game by hitting a guy too.

[Oblong]

Quentin's going to find out he doesn't have many friends left in baseball after this. Bud Black was straining to talk about it while having to stick up for his guy. Carlos is a marked man now and the pitching fraternity will be after him.

[spawn]

Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187

By the time Greinke threw his glove to the side, Quentin was charging at him full steam. So no, he is not a "victim" per se but he is not the instigator either.

I never said he was the instigator. Quentin was clearly that by charging the mound. But as he was, Greinke could've backpedaled or turned and ran. He could've done either in the time it took him to drop his glove and lower his shoulder. But we agree that he wasn't a victim here.

[WhiteSox5187]

Originally Posted by RKMeibalane

Well, TCQ says he didn't hear what was said, so the "how" of the situation doesn't matter. What does matter is that Greinke clearly says a word to Carlos before Quentin attacks him. It's possible that was enough to provoke Carlos, especially if he was already spoiling for a fight. I can believe he thought about fighting Greike. I don't for one moment believe munch's claims that he set up the entire thing.

I also don't entirely believe Quentin's version of events (I've spent the entire day tearing him apart on this board for his stupidity, and Paul Konerko, as well, for defending him), but Greinke isn't blameless. He was there. He could have handled things differently, but he chose to open his mouth, and he chose to leave himself vulnerable to injury.

This is really getting into minutia here, but I think the fact that Quentin took his first step towards the mound shows he was ready for a fight. Greinke did say something but based solely on his body language I don't think it was INTENDED to be confrontational. I also doubt that it was intended to be apologetic either.

[RKMeibalane]

Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187

Yea, I agree with your point that lowering his shoulder was stupid. I am not sure that he knew what the proper defensive stance was though and instinct probably took over. Unless a pitcher has a background in karate or wrestling (like Kyle Farnsworth), they are kind of defenseless at that point. I remember seeing Pedro backpedal and throw his glove at the guy who was charging him when he was with the Expos. I think that was after Pedro just lost a perfect game by hitting a guy too.

The instinctive response is to raise one's hands in front of the face and upper-body. I just had my girlfriend run toward me with her fists up to test the idea. Before I even realized what I'd done, my hands were in front of my face, and I'd gone to something resembling a basketball defensive crouch, with my feet aligned with my shoulders. Granted, I'm not a pitcher and have no throwing arm to protect, but what Greinke did makes absolutely no sense.

[WhiteSox5187]

Originally Posted by Oblong

Quentin's going to find out he doesn't have many friends left in baseball after this. Bud Black was straining to talk about it while having to stick up for his guy. Carlos is a marked man now and the pitching fraternity will be after him.

Oh if he thought they were throwing at him before wait until he faces the Dodgers again. It's probably worth pointing out that in the first inning Marquis threw a 1-2 pitch up around the head of Matt Kemp, so I think the Dodgers are going to REALLY have it out for Quentin.

[RKMeibalane]

Originally Posted by Oblong

Quentin's going to find out he doesn't have many friends left in baseball after this. Bud Black was straining to talk about it while having to stick up for his guy. Carlos is a marked man now and the pitching fraternity will be after him.

"I'm still his friend."



"Don't remind us."