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  #136  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:34 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by voodoochile View Post
Oh give me a break. What did Quentin do BEFORE Greinke smacked him with a baseball than verbally dared Quentin to do anything about it?

There's lots of these "unwritten rules" in baseball for a reason. You don't taunt the pitcher when you hit a home run and you don't walk toward the guy you just smacked with a baseball and start mouthing off.

You are so wrapped up in this Greinke is a victim thing you can't even consider he did something to provoke the situation.

By your standards no one can ever be held accountable for their actions until things turn violent. How far do we take that ludicrous crap? I could start listing a LOT of times in history the "it's just words" defense has been used but that would turn this political.

Here's the facts...

Greinke smacked TCQ with a baseball.

TCQ stepped out on the infield and took a few steps kind of toward first and kind of toward the mound. He was clearly irritated, but he didn't charge or say anything to Grinke, just glared at him.

Greinke then said (at least) "WHAT?!?!?!?" as he walked off the mound toward TCQ.

Then TCQ charged.

Now who in this situation actually sounds like the "bullly"?
TCQ hit himself with a baseball. Greinke was pitching inside. Pitchers do that. The pitch hits less than .002% of hitters.

TCQ immediately steps forward, at a pace way to fast for someone that didn't expect to get hit. It was entirely premeditated. I've never seen anyone react that fast heading toward the mound.

There is nothing you can say to another human being that validates violence, other than the threat of violence, which I seriously doubt occurred.

Quentin is a thug.
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  #137  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:41 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
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The article seems to blame Greinke for getting hurt because he didn't run away or tip his cap or whatever. That's ludicrous. It's someone fault they're assaulted because they won't lay down for a violent bully who'll beat them up if you don't do what they say?

Maybe the lesson is Greinke should thrown 85 straight down the heart of the plate. That way Quentin won't get mad and attack him.

Not at all, as the violent bully has a choice of whether he carries out the assault. People are taught, however, that one must try to avoid situations in which a violent bully may be encountered. As Greinke didn't have a choice about Quentin's being in the San Diego lineup, he had to face him when it was the latter's turn at bat, and as the game was close during Quentin's final at-bat, Greinke did not have the option of intentionally walking him (he may have walked him anyway had he not hit him), because doing so would have put the trying run on base.

Given that Greinke had to face Quentin (and the count was full), it's clear to everyone (except Quentin) that Greinke was trying to record an out. Allowing a base-runner for any reason wasn't something he wanted to do. As it stands, Quentin was hit by the 3-2 pitch, and was awarded first base. Up to this point, I don't Greinke was guilty of any wrongdoing. But then he made his first mistake.

Quentin was starting to walk toward first base, but he was clearly staring out at the pitcher's mound, perhaps thinking of the history between himself and Greinke when the two were playing in the American League. It's possible that his brief reflection was enough to stir old feelings of animosity: we have no way to know for certain. What is known is what happened next, as it's clearly visible in the numerous video replays of the incident.

Greinke says something to Quentin. It looks like he's asking, "What?" This is his initial error. Quentin throws down his bat and starts for the mound. Greinke throws down his glove and assumes a defensive position (which apparently involves his leading with his shoulder). This is his second mistake. Quentin accelerates toward the mound, meeting Greinke in a collison, his midsection colliding with Greinke's left shoulder, presumably the moment in which the latter's clavicle was broken. Quentin throws Greinke to the ground. The two combatants are joined by their teammates, and a brief brawl ensues.

What should Greinke have done differently? He should not have said anything to Quentin. I don't buy TCQ's bull**** claims that Greinke's mouth set him off. He didn't even know what Greinke said to him. I think he was already thinking about a fight- possibly because of the history between himself and Greinke- and his anger got the best of him. Having said that, if Greinke looks at his shoes, there's no additional provocation for Carlos to charge the mound.

Greinke also should not have led with his shoulder, for reasons I've outlined above. I doubt if Greinke knew about common mechanisms of clavicle fracture (although he may know them now), but any pitcher knows the importance of avoiding arm and shoulder injuries, even to the non-throwing side of the body. Did Greinke think the Dodgers would let him pitch anyway?

As to your second point, if Greinke had thrown a meatball down the heart of the plate, I think Mattingly would have attacked him, so that doesn't seem to have been a reasonable alternative.
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  #138  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:44 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
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TCQ hit himself with a baseball. Greinke was pitching inside. Pitchers do that. The pitch hits less than .002% of hitters.
I have to disagree with you here, munch. TCQ was crowding the plate, and Greinke hit him with the baseball. Quentin just happens to be that .002% you've mentioned, but he didn't throw at himself.
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  #139  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:46 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Not at all, as the violent bully has a choice of whether he carries out the assault. People are taught, however, that one must try to avoid situations in which a violent bully may be encountered. As Greinke didn't have a choice about Quentin's being in the San Diego lineup, he had to face him when it was the latter's turn at bat, and as the game was close during Quentin's final at-bat, Greinke did not have the option of intentionally walking him (he may have walked him anyway had he not hit him), because doing so would have put the trying run on base.
People aren't taught this anymore, in fact people are pretty adamant against this type of thinking nowadays. Laws and business practices that blame victims are the target of civil suits across the country. Which is good, because victim blaming is incredibly ****ty.
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  #140  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:47 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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I have to disagree with you here, munch. TCQ was crowding the plate, and Greinke hit him with the baseball. Quentin just happens to be that .002% you've mentioned, but he didn't throw at himself.
According to the article, it's .002% of all players, but .04% when it's Quentin. He's single-handedly making that pitch a statistic.
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  #141  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:47 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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TCQ hit himself with a baseball. Greinke was pitching inside. Pitchers do that. The pitch hits less than .002% of hitters.

TCQ immediately steps forward, at a pace way to fast for someone that didn't expect to get hit. It was entirely premeditated. I've never seen anyone react that fast heading toward the mound.

There is nothing you can say to another human being that validates violence, other than the threat of violence, which I seriously doubt occurred.

Quentin is a thug.
I don't know if I would say that but he is clearly the instigator here. His first step after getting hit by a pitch was towards the mound, when Quentin takes his first step Greinke looks towards the first base line in disgust. There is no way that that pitch was thrown with the intent to hit Quentin.
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  #142  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
TCQ hit himself with a baseball. Greinke was pitching inside. Pitchers do that. The pitch hits less than .002% of hitters.

TCQ immediately steps forward, at a pace way to fast for someone that didn't expect to get hit. It was entirely premeditated. I've never seen anyone react that fast heading toward the mound.

There is nothing you can say to another human being that validates violence, other than the threat of violence, which I seriously doubt occurred.

Quentin is a thug.
Then Greinke is an even bigger fool than I said because he picked a fight with a thug. Get over it. Greinke did something stupid. He verbally escalated a volatile situation with someone who by your own admission is a big bad violent man.

At best Greinke deserves to be held up for derision and ridicule for doing that. At worst he shares over 1/2 the blame.

And once again, I point out one simple fact: QUENTIN DID NOT CHARGE UNTIL GREINKE DECIDED TO CHANNEL HIS INNER TROLL.

If Quentin were really a thug wouldn't he have charged the mound before the 117th time he got hit at least once? Maybe? Possibly?

Or is it just because Greinke got injured that makes Quentin a thug?

You'd have to prove Quentin went out of his way to injure Greinke to prove that wouldn't you? How exactly do you plan on doing that?
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  #143  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:50 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
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People aren't taught this anymore, in fact people are pretty adamant against this type of thinking nowadays. Laws and business practices that blame victims are the target of civil suits across the country. Which is good, because victim blaming is incredibly ****ty.
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  #144  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:51 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
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I don't know if I would say that but he is clearly the instigator here. His first step after getting hit by a pitch was towards the mound, when Quentin takes his first step Greinke looks towards the first base line in disgust. There is no way that that pitch was thrown with the intent to hit Quentin.
Completely agree. Whatever Greinke did after hitting Quentin, he clearly didn't mean to hit him.
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  #145  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:51 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Then Greinke is an even bigger fool than I said because he picked a fight with a thug. Get over it. Greinke did something stupid. He verbally escalated a volatile situation with someone who by your own admission is a big bad violent man.

At best Greinke deserves to be held up for derision and ridicule for doing that. At worst he shares over 1/2 the blame.

And once again, I point out one simple fact: QUENTIN DID NOT CHARGE UNTIL GREINKE DECIDED TO CHANNEL HIS INNER TROLL.

If Quentin were really a thug wouldn't he have charged the mound before the 117th time he got hit at least once? Maybe? Possibly?

Or is it just because Greinke got injured that makes Quentin a thug?

You'd have to prove Quentin went out of his way to injure Greinke to prove that wouldn't you? How exactly do you plan on doing that?
Just so we're clear Voodoo, the fact that this is on a baseball field is really the only reason you can even make that statement, hiding behind "unspoken rules". If I'm outside a bar and say something someone else doesn't like and they decide to attack me, it isn't me that's going to jail. It isn't me that's getting sued. Because VIOLENCE is inexcusable. It's inexcusable. Greinke did nothing violent toward Quentin. That pitch wasn't meant to hit Quentin and he knew it. This was one guy trying to take a rival teams star down through violence. And he deserves a lifetime ban for it.
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  #146  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:53 PM
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I don't know if I would say that but he is clearly the instigator here. His first step after getting hit by a pitch was towards the mound, when Quentin takes his first step Greinke looks towards the first base line in disgust. There is no way that that pitch was thrown with the intent to hit Quentin.
A lot of guys do that. A lot of guys walk off their steam by doing exactly what Quentin did. Maybe it crossed his mind to charge but he didn't until Zach challenged him to.

That timeline is NOT disputable.

In case you don't know it, I'm hard of hearing. I read lips really well. Greinke clearly said "WHAT?!?!?!" before Quentin charged.

He trolled, but he wasn't behind the safety of his computer screen when he did it. This is why cops tell people not to scream at people on the roadways because the other guy might be packing heat.

Does anyone doubt Quentin was irritated? Does anyone say he doesn't have a valid personal reason for feeling that way? I mean he did just get smacked with a 80+MPH baseball (I'm being generous). Then the guy who smacked him started talking trash.

Then the trash talking guy who smacked him got his ass handed to him.

**** happens when you talk trash to people you just caused pain to and sometimes you get your ass kicked when it happens. It's just that simple. This is life.
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  #147  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:54 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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A lot of guys do that. A lot of guys walk off their steam by doing exactly what Quentin did. Maybe it crossed his mind to charge but he didn't until Zach challenged him to.

That timeline is NOT disputable.

In case you don't know it, I'm hard of hearing. I read lips really well. Greinke clearly said "WHAT?!?!?!" before Quentin charged.

He trolled, but he wasn't behind the safety of his computer screen when he did it. This is why cops tell people not to scream at people on the roadways because the other guy might be packing heat.

Does anyone doubt Quentin was irritated? Does anyone say he doesn't have a valid personal reason for feeling that way? I mean he did just get smacked with a 80+MPH baseball (I'm being generous). Then the guy who smacked him started talking trash.

Then the trash talking guy who smacked him got his ass handed to him.

**** happens when you talk trash to people you just caused pain to and sometimes you get your ass kicked when it happens. It's just that simple. This is life.
Yes. Science. Article in thread. Hits himself.

Like talking to a brick wall.
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  #148  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:55 PM
RKMeibalane RKMeibalane is offline
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You'd have to prove Quentin went out of his way to injure Greinke to prove that wouldn't you? How exactly do you plan on doing that?
Of everything that's been said about this topic, I think this may be the most important point. I've spent most of the afternoon and evening tearing Quentin down for his behavior, but even I acknowledge that I don't believe he meant to injure Greinke. I think he wanted to fight: I'll even accept that he was already thinking about charging the mound before Greinke shouted at him (I suggested as much in an earlier post), but I don't think he went out there with the intention of breaking Greinke's collarbone, and no one can prove that he did.

Furthermore, as I've already explained, Greinke himself provided the mechanism for clavicular fracture by leading with his shoulder to begin with. If he assumes a proper fighting stance, he doesn't break his collarbone.
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  #149  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:55 PM
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Just so we're clear Voodoo, the fact that this is on a baseball field is really the only reason you can even make that statement, hiding behind "unspoken rules". If I'm outside a bar and say something someone else doesn't like and they decide to attack me, it isn't me that's going to jail. It isn't me that's getting sued. Because VIOLENCE is inexcusable. It's inexcusable. Greinke did nothing violent toward Quentin. That pitch wasn't meant to hit Quentin and he knew it. This was one guy trying to take a rival teams star down through violence. And he deserves a lifetime ban for it.
Okay let's back this up a step...

You are walking down the street. You are holding a baseball. You decide to fire it at a wall. You accidentally hit some guy standing beside the wall. He walks a few steps toward you. Now you look him straight in the eyes and say, "WHAT?!?!?"

What do you think happens next?

Who do you think gets the blame when the cops show up?

The only reason Greinke isn't in jail for assault is because it happened on a baseball field....
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  #150  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:56 PM
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Yes. Science. Article in thread. Hits himself.

Like talking to a brick wall.
I couldn't have said it better...
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