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  #76  
Old 02-14-2013, 02:12 PM
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spawn spawn is offline
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There is some major pwnage going on in this thread...
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  #77  
Old 02-14-2013, 02:44 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
Dayan Viciedo - .255/.300/.444, 4.28 K/BB, 4.52 PA/K

Willie Stargell - .243/.290/.428, 4.47 K/BB, 3.85 PA/K (HOF)

Andre Dawson - .253/.299/.442, 4.26 K/BB, 5.15 PA/K (HOF)

Dave Parker - .282/.322/.409, 5.30 K/BB, 4.40 PA/K ('78 MVP)

Jermaine Dye - .252/.286/.394, 4.55 K/BB, 4.77 PA/K, ages 22-24 ('05 WS MVP)

Ryan Howard - horrid 3.63 PA/K at age 23...in high A ball. ('06 MVP)
Please include contact rates for comparison. This on its own doesn't not make them comparable. Not saying they're not comparable players, just noting that this is incomplete.
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  #78  
Old 02-14-2013, 02:48 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Please include contact rates for comparison. This on its own doesn't not make them comparable. Not saying they're not comparable players, just noting that this is incomplete.
PA per K isn't a contact rate?
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  #79  
Old 02-14-2013, 02:49 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
PA per K isn't a contact rate?
No. It's its own statistic. What you're referring to is strikeout rate. Which isn't meaningless, but doesn't really tell the story of WHY someone is striking out as well.
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  #80  
Old 02-14-2013, 02:53 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
No. It's its own statistic. What you're referring to is strikeout rate. Which isn't meaningless, but doesn't really tell the story of WHY someone is striking out as well.
It's basically a different permutation of the same thing. PA/K vs. (AB-K)/AB. I don't see how one is more valid than the other or how AB-K/AB explains 'why' any more than PA/K.

Just to make you happy though:
Viciedo: 76.2%
Stargell: 72.0%

Last edited by TheVulture; 02-14-2013 at 02:58 PM.
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  #81  
Old 02-14-2013, 03:00 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
It's basically a different permutation of the same thing. PA/K vs. (AB-K)/AB. I don't see how one is more valid than the other or how AB-K/AB explains 'why' any more than PA/K.

Just to make you happy though:
Viciedo: 76.2%
Stargell: 72.0%
I think we're talking about different things. I'm talking about contact vs. swing and miss. Maybe I am referring to it by the wrong name.
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  #82  
Old 02-14-2013, 03:10 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
It's basically a different permutation of the same thing. PA/K vs. (AB-K)/AB. I don't see how one is more valid than the other or how AB-K/AB explains 'why' any more than PA/K.

Just to make you happy though:
Viciedo: 76.2%
Stargell: 72.0%
No he is talking about that one stat that proves his point that shows Dayan Viciedo sucks and will never contribute anything to a winning team. I forget what it's called.
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  #83  
Old 02-14-2013, 03:42 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
No he is talking about that one stat that proves his point that shows Dayan Viciedo sucks and will never contribute anything to a winning team. I forget what it's called.
What does this accomplish? I'm trying to see his point of view.
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  #84  
Old 02-14-2013, 05:26 PM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post

Please include contact rates for comparison. This on its own doesn't not make them comparable. Not saying they're not comparable players, just noting that this is incomplete.
How is that comparable? I'm using the widely accepted BA/OBP/SLG numbers, K/AB is something another poster injected to make their argument relative, as if Viciedo striking out less will magically improve all his other subpar qualities as a hitter.

If you want to go with recent Cuban hitters, look at Betancourt at age 23, he was most compared to Viciedo when Dayan signed here.

Plus you can cherry pick stats all day. My initial point being that just because Viciedo is 23 and he only just played a full year is no reason to consider him a rookie and give him a pass. Or give him a pass ignoring his 1300 minor league at bats hopefully making him something he ain't - cause you love the long ball.

If I'm proved wrong and he blossoms into a good hitter, I'll happily eat crow.
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  #85  
Old 02-14-2013, 06:33 PM
tstrike2000 tstrike2000 is offline
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The bottom line is we established that while Viciedo may not be the second coming of Frank Thomas, he has a lot of upside. Manto helping Dayan with his timing mechanism is just the first step to what could be a really good year. I'm a little skeptical of the offense as a whole but cautiously optimistic at what Dayan's going to do.
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  #86  
Old 02-14-2013, 08:08 PM
CoopaLoop CoopaLoop is offline
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Originally Posted by RKMeibalane View Post
Catcher is a difficult position to play, because it requires many of the same defensive responsibilities common to the other positions, but it also mandates being able to work directly with the pitching and coaching staffs, which is not easy. As Flowers is a young catcher, I would guess Ventura and Cooper will probably call most of the pitches and relay signs to Tyler when he's behind the plate, but he still has to have a rapport with the pitchers, many of whom are used to working with AJ more than they are with him.
Pitchers already have said they love working with Flowers. I am not worried about him "calling a game" at all. Only thing with Flowers is can he hit enough to stay in the big leagues?

And anyone who enjoys using the baseball is not an offensive sport can save it.

Last edited by CoopaLoop; 02-14-2013 at 08:14 PM.
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  #87  
Old 02-14-2013, 08:38 PM
mzh mzh is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Please include contact rates for comparison. This on its own doesn't not make them comparable. Not saying they're not comparable players, just noting that this is incomplete.
Actual contact percentages don't exist for players as far back as Stargell or Parker. But here you go anyway. This is the actual stat that you want.

2012 Viciedo- 75.4%

Prince effing Fielder is at 77.4% for his career
Joey Votto is at 78%
Josh Hamilton is at 72.4%
Adrian Gonzalez is at 78%
Curtis Granderson is at 76.8%

For comparison, Robinson Cano and Albert Pujols both sit in the high 80s for their career. Make what you want of it.

3% difference. Big whoop.

Thank you, come again.
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  #88  
Old 02-15-2013, 01:40 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post

If you want to go with recent Cuban hitters, look at Betancourt at age 23, he was most compared to Viciedo when Dayan signed here.

Plus you can cherry pick stats all day. My initial point being that just because Viciedo is 23 and he only just played a full year is no reason to consider him a rookie and give him a pass.
My post was in response to blandman's claim that there are no hitters with similar k and k/bb rates to Viciedo at age 23 who became successful hitters. I believe he said to name one player who wasn't out of the league in five years. If you want to keep moving the goal posts, of course I will never score.

That said, I wasn't trying to argue that Viciedo was likely to be the next Willie Stargell; sure he could be the next Betancourt. However, I was responding to the initial claim that said in essence Viciedo has proven he will never be a quality major league hitter because no hitter ever had such poor k/bb and k rates and went on to have success. You can't change the claim, which wasn't even your claim to begin with, and then claim I'm cherry picking stats. I'm referring to the very stats that were imbedded in the claim I was responding to.

Here is the argument summed up I was responding to, maybe this will help:
Quote:
Originally Posted by blandman
It has more to do with the K:BB ratio. None of those guys walk, but Viciedo K's like 5 times more than his miniscule walks...
The real problem is numbers like his don't bode well when you talk about likelihood of improvement....
his numbers are just something you don't see really ever (what with so little contact and so few walks) in someone that ends up sticking....
Can you come up with a player with a truly comparable first season to Viciedo, including K:BB ratio and contact rates, in which the player wasn't out of the league in five years?

Last edited by TheVulture; 02-15-2013 at 01:49 PM.
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  #89  
Old 02-15-2013, 01:45 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
How is that comparable? I'm using the widely accepted BA/OBP/SLG numbers, K/AB is something another poster injected to make their argument relative, as if Viciedo striking out less will magically improve all his other subpar qualities as a hitter.

If you want to go with recent Cuban hitters, look at Betancourt at age 23, he was most compared to Viciedo when Dayan signed here.

Plus you can cherry pick stats all day. My initial point being that just because Viciedo is 23 and he only just played a full year is no reason to consider him a rookie and give him a pass. Or give him a pass ignoring his 1300 minor league at bats hopefully making him something he ain't - cause you love the long ball.

If I'm proved wrong and he blossoms into a good hitter, I'll happily eat crow.
He has already outperformed Betancourt. And when Alexei Ramirez signed, he was compared offensively to Omar Infante with less power.
What Viciedo has to do is figure out how to hit RHP. He was a beast against LHP. In Charlotte, he eventually figured it out. If he does in Chicago, he'll put up huge numbers. I don't know if he will, but I think it's worth giving him the playing time to find out.

Last edited by dickallen15; 02-15-2013 at 01:51 PM.
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  #90  
Old 02-15-2013, 01:55 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
No he is talking about that one stat that proves his point that shows Dayan Viciedo sucks and will never contribute anything to a winning team. I forget what it's called.
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