Are we really going into the season with no veteran catcher?

[spawn]

There is some major pwnage going on in this thread...

[blandman]

Originally Posted by TheVulture

Dayan Viciedo - .255/.300/.444, 4.28 K/BB, 4.52 PA/K

Willie Stargell - .243/.290/.428, 4.47 K/BB, 3.85 PA/K (HOF)

Andre Dawson - .253/.299/.442, 4.26 K/BB, 5.15 PA/K (HOF)

Dave Parker - .282/.322/.409, 5.30 K/BB, 4.40 PA/K ('78 MVP)

Jermaine Dye - .252/.286/.394, 4.55 K/BB, 4.77 PA/K, ages 22-24 ('05 WS MVP)

Ryan Howard - horrid 3.63 PA/K at age 23...in high A ball. ('06 MVP)

Please include contact rates for comparison. This on its own doesn't not make them comparable. Not saying they're not comparable players, just noting that this is incomplete.

[TheVulture]

Originally Posted by blandman

Please include contact rates for comparison. This on its own doesn't not make them comparable. Not saying they're not comparable players, just noting that this is incomplete.

PA per K isn't a contact rate?

[blandman]

Originally Posted by TheVulture

PA per K isn't a contact rate?

No. It's its own statistic. What you're referring to is strikeout rate. Which isn't meaningless, but doesn't really tell the story of WHY someone is striking out as well.

[TheVulture]

Originally Posted by blandman

No. It's its own statistic. What you're referring to is strikeout rate. Which isn't meaningless, but doesn't really tell the story of WHY someone is striking out as well.

It's basically a different permutation of the same thing. PA/K vs. (AB-K)/AB. I don't see how one is more valid than the other or how AB-K/AB explains 'why' any more than PA/K.

Just to make you happy though:
Viciedo: 76.2%
Stargell: 72.0%

[blandman]

Originally Posted by TheVulture

It's basically a different permutation of the same thing. PA/K vs. (AB-K)/AB. I don't see how one is more valid than the other or how AB-K/AB explains 'why' any more than PA/K.

Just to make you happy though:
Viciedo: 76.2%
Stargell: 72.0%

I think we're talking about different things. I'm talking about contact vs. swing and miss. Maybe I am referring to it by the wrong name.

[WhiteSox5187]

Originally Posted by TheVulture

It's basically a different permutation of the same thing. PA/K vs. (AB-K)/AB. I don't see how one is more valid than the other or how AB-K/AB explains 'why' any more than PA/K.

Just to make you happy though:
Viciedo: 76.2%
Stargell: 72.0%

No he is talking about that one stat that proves his point that shows Dayan Viciedo sucks and will never contribute anything to a winning team. I forget what it's called.

[blandman]

Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187

No he is talking about that one stat that proves his point that shows Dayan Viciedo sucks and will never contribute anything to a winning team. I forget what it's called.

What does this accomplish? I'm trying to see his point of view.

[russ99]

Originally Posted by blandman

Please include contact rates for comparison. This on its own doesn't not make them comparable. Not saying they're not comparable players, just noting that this is incomplete.

How is that comparable? I'm using the widely accepted BA/OBP/SLG numbers, K/AB is something another poster injected to make their argument relative, as if Viciedo striking out less will magically improve all his other subpar qualities as a hitter.

If you want to go with recent Cuban hitters, look at Betancourt at age 23, he was most compared to Viciedo when Dayan signed here.

Plus you can cherry pick stats all day. My initial point being that just because Viciedo is 23 and he only just played a full year is no reason to consider him a rookie and give him a pass. Or give him a pass ignoring his 1300 minor league at bats hopefully making him something he ain't - cause you love the long ball.

If I'm proved wrong and he blossoms into a good hitter, I'll happily eat crow.

[tstrike2000]

The bottom line is we established that while Viciedo may not be the second coming of Frank Thomas, he has a lot of upside. Manto helping Dayan with his timing mechanism is just the first step to what could be a really good year. I'm a little skeptical of the offense as a whole but cautiously optimistic at what Dayan's going to do.

[CoopaLoop]

Originally Posted by RKMeibalane

Catcher is a difficult position to play, because it requires many of the same defensive responsibilities common to the other positions, but it also mandates being able to work directly with the pitching and coaching staffs, which is not easy. As Flowers is a young catcher, I would guess Ventura and Cooper will probably call most of the pitches and relay signs to Tyler when he's behind the plate, but he still has to have a rapport with the pitchers, many of whom are used to working with AJ more than they are with him.

Pitchers already have said they love working with Flowers. I am not worried about him "calling a game" at all. Only thing with Flowers is can he hit enough to stay in the big leagues?

And anyone who enjoys using the baseball is not an offensive sport can save it.

[mzh]

Originally Posted by blandman

Please include contact rates for comparison. This on its own doesn't not make them comparable. Not saying they're not comparable players, just noting that this is incomplete.

Actual contact percentages don't exist for players as far back as Stargell or Parker. But here you go anyway. This is the actual stat that you want.

2012 Viciedo- 75.4%

Prince effing Fielder is at 77.4% for his career
Joey Votto is at 78%
Josh Hamilton is at 72.4%
Adrian Gonzalez is at 78%
Curtis Granderson is at 76.8%

For comparison, Robinson Cano and Albert Pujols both sit in the high 80s for their career. Make what you want of it.

3% difference. Big whoop.

Thank you, come again.

[TheVulture]

Originally Posted by russ99

If you want to go with recent Cuban hitters, look at Betancourt at age 23, he was most compared to Viciedo when Dayan signed here.

Plus you can cherry pick stats all day. My initial point being that just because Viciedo is 23 and he only just played a full year is no reason to consider him a rookie and give him a pass.

My post was in response to blandman's claim that there are no hitters with similar k and k/bb rates to Viciedo at age 23 who became successful hitters. I believe he said to name one player who wasn't out of the league in five years. If you want to keep moving the goal posts, of course I will never score.

That said, I wasn't trying to argue that Viciedo was likely to be the next Willie Stargell; sure he could be the next Betancourt. However, I was responding to the initial claim that said in essence Viciedo has proven he will never be a quality major league hitter because no hitter ever had such poor k/bb and k rates and went on to have success. You can't change the claim, which wasn't even your claim to begin with, and then claim I'm cherry picking stats. I'm referring to the very stats that were imbedded in the claim I was responding to.

Here is the argument summed up I was responding to, maybe this will help:

Originally Posted by blandman

It has more to do with the K:BB ratio. None of those guys walk, but Viciedo K's like 5 times more than his miniscule walks...
The real problem is numbers like his don't bode well when you talk about likelihood of improvement....
his numbers are just something you don't see really ever (what with so little contact and so few walks) in someone that ends up sticking....
Can you come up with a player with a truly comparable first season to Viciedo, including K:BB ratio and contact rates, in which the player wasn't out of the league in five years?

[dickallen15]

Originally Posted by russ99

How is that comparable? I'm using the widely accepted BA/OBP/SLG numbers, K/AB is something another poster injected to make their argument relative, as if Viciedo striking out less will magically improve all his other subpar qualities as a hitter.

If you want to go with recent Cuban hitters, look at Betancourt at age 23, he was most compared to Viciedo when Dayan signed here.

Plus you can cherry pick stats all day. My initial point being that just because Viciedo is 23 and he only just played a full year is no reason to consider him a rookie and give him a pass. Or give him a pass ignoring his 1300 minor league at bats hopefully making him something he ain't - cause you love the long ball.

If I'm proved wrong and he blossoms into a good hitter, I'll happily eat crow.

He has already outperformed Betancourt. And when Alexei Ramirez signed, he was compared offensively to Omar Infante with less power.
What Viciedo has to do is figure out how to hit RHP. He was a beast against LHP. In Charlotte, he eventually figured it out. If he does in Chicago, he'll put up huge numbers. I don't know if he will, but I think it's worth giving him the playing time to find out.

[TheVulture]

Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187

No he is talking about that one stat that proves his point that shows Dayan Viciedo sucks and will never contribute anything to a winning team. I forget what it's called.