White Sox Interactive Forums
Sox Clubhouse
 Soxogram: 
Congratulations on winning the AL ROTY award unanimously, Jose!

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > Sox Clubhouse
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 02-09-2013, 01:42 PM
blandman blandman is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,482
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilburaga View Post
This transaction just beclouds the issue as to which cap DLS will wear to his enshrinement.
Obviously he will be wearing a White Sox hat. As soon as I'm GM, I'm reacquiring him to lead the staff for the next decade.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 02-09-2013, 02:05 PM
sullythered sullythered is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Oak Lawn, IL
Posts: 4,339
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blandman View Post
You CAN'T compare the two is the problem. Comparing Sale to Verlander to make your case...you might as well take a hitter and compare him to Verlander and make the same case. It makes absolutely no sense.

Chris Sale is FRAIL. I cannot make the letters large enough to indicate how FRAIL he is. He is 6'6'' and only 180 pounds. His BMI would say he is starving to death. (before you pick on this, that's a joke. BMI doesn't tell people they're starving).

On top of that, he has a motion that puts tremendous strain on his elbow, and evidence last year showed that on a few occassions already.

Verlander is shorter than Sale and weighs more. A lot more. Like a small person more. On top of that: HE HAS ABOUT THE MOST FLAWLESS PITCHING MECHANICS IN THE GAME. I can't speak on whether they were different his first year...but who cares? Did Sale do the same this offseason and learn to throw differently with pinpoint control, command, and no loss of speed? Comparing Sale to whatever you think Verlander used to be makes no sense because what Verlander is today is so far removed from that it has no basis in a rational argument.

Verlander is a once in a generation talent. It's foolish to compare anyone to him for any reason, unless it's another one of the all time greats.

Now...Max Scherzer does have a violent motion. Not as bad as Sale's, which puts significantly more stress on his elbow (Scherzer's follow through makes it look worse than it actually is). But Scherzer is shorter than even Verlander, and still outweighs Sale by 40 freakin' pounds.
Skinny and frail are not the same thing. Take a look at the UFC and tell me if all the skinny guys at the top of their divisions are "frail."

There is no such thing as "flawless pitching mechanics." It is a myth. There are violent deliveries and less violent deliveries. Verlander's is violent. It puts a lot of stress on his elbow, just like Sale's does. Whether Sale's ligaments will hold up like Verlander's remains to be seen, but I made the initial comparison because of the early speculation that Verlander would get hurt whiplashing the way he does, the eerily similar first seasons he and Sale had, and the fact that he has stayed healthy (despite early fears that he wouldn't).


To a separate point, I agree Verlander is probably the best pitcher in baseball, but he's not a once in a generation talent. I'm not completely convinced that King Felix isn't as good as him right now.
__________________
And on the 8th day, God created churros.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 02-09-2013, 02:17 PM
blandman blandman is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,482
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sullythered View Post
Skinny and frail are not the same thing. Take a look at the UFC and tell me if all the skinny guys at the top of their divisions are "frail."

There is no such thing as "flawless pitching mechanics." It is a myth. There are violent deliveries and less violent deliveries. Verlander's is violent. It puts a lot of stress on his elbow, just like Sale's does. Whether Sale's ligaments will hold up like Verlander's remains to be seen, but I made the initial comparison because of the early speculation that Verlander would get hurt whiplashing the way he does, the eerily similar first seasons he and Sale had, and the fact that he has stayed healthy (despite early fears that he wouldn't).


To a separate point, I agree Verlander is probably the best pitcher in baseball, but he's not a once in a generation talent. I'm not completely convinced that King Felix isn't as good as him right now.


Man do yourself a favor and just google "justin verlander pitching mechanics". You use words like "violent" to describe things the world uses words like "smooth" for.

Justin Verlander is 6'5'' and 225 pounds. That is a very very big man. Even if you don't think Sale is frail (even if by baseball pitcher standards he's probably the most frail guy in the game right now), how you expect even a similar motion to affect both guys the same way is without an sort of rational basis, let alone one that is completely different in every way possible.

I can't really argue with you anymore because the position you're arguing from doesn't have a basis in reality to anyone else.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 02-09-2013, 02:24 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 18,249
Blog Entries: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilburaga View Post

This transaction just beclouds the issue as to which cap DLS will wear to his enshrinement.
Sterile surgical
__________________
The universe is the practical joke of the General at the expense of the Particular, quoth Frater Perdurabo, and laughed. The disciples nearest him wept, seeing the Universal Sorrow. Others laughed, seeing the Universal Joke. Others wept. Others laughed. Others wept because they couldn't see the Joke, and others laughed lest they should be thought not to see the Joke. But though FRATER laughed openly, he wept secretly; and really he neither laughed nor wept. Nor did he mean what he said.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 02-09-2013, 02:53 PM
sullythered sullythered is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Oak Lawn, IL
Posts: 4,339
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blandman View Post


Man do yourself a favor and just google "justin verlander pitching mechanics". You use words like "violent" to describe things the world uses words like "smooth" for.

Justin Verlander is 6'5'' and 225 pounds. That is a very very big man. Even if you don't think Sale is frail (even if by baseball pitcher standards he's probably the most frail guy in the game right now), how you expect even a similar motion to affect both guys the same way is without an sort of rational basis, let alone one that is completely different in every way possible.

I can't really argue with you anymore because the position you're arguing from doesn't have a basis in reality to anyone else.
I don't think you know what the word "frail" means. Skinny is not the same thing as frail. Not at all. A 300 lbs. man who is all muscle can be more frail than a very skinny man. Frailty has nothing to do with the visible build of someone.

And even if we disagree on whether Verlander's delivery is violent (it is), the whole reason that I compared the two players in the first place was to point out that even one of the most durable pitchers in the game (Verlander) had almost exactly the same small bouts of fatigue and difficulty in his first year starting as Chris Sale. In actuality, Verlander's bouts of fatigue in his first year were worse than Sale's. You, despite any evidence, attribute Sale's small bouts of difficulty (which you overstated, as usual) to injury, where I very much doubt you would have attributed Verlander's similar, but worse stretches as anything but fatigue.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 02-09-2013, 03:01 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 18,249
Blog Entries: 1
Default

Career-threatening injuries are less about bones and muscles and body size, and more about ligaments and tendons, the strength and resilience of which are impossible for even the most experienced of scouts (and statisticians) to assess with any degree of certainty.

Since Sale hasn't had to have surgery, and none of us has operated on him, none of us are qualified to render an opinion on the strength and resilience of his tendons and ligaments.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 02-09-2013, 03:03 PM
sullythered sullythered is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Oak Lawn, IL
Posts: 4,339
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
Career-threatening injuries are less about bones and muscles and body size, and more about ligaments and tendons, the strength and resilience of which are impossible for even the most experienced of scouts (and statisticians) to assess with any degree of certainty.

Since Sale hasn't had to have surgery, and none of us has operated on him, none of us are qualified to render an opinion on the strength and resilience of his tendons and ligaments.
That was pretty much the point I was trying to make until I let myself get dragged into the munchiverse.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 02-09-2013, 03:12 PM
blandman blandman is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,482
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
Career-threatening injuries are less about bones and muscles and body size, and more about ligaments and tendons, the strength and resilience of which are impossible for even the most experienced of scouts (and statisticians) to assess with any degree of certainty.

Since Sale hasn't had to have surgery, and none of us has operated on him, none of us are qualified to render an opinion on the strength and resilience of his tendons and ligaments.
Oh for the love of God. First off, that's entirely mularky. Ligament and tendon strength can be indicated. Heck, I'm not even a doctor and I know there are tons of indicating factors for weak ligaments. Oh and hey, joint pain is one of them! So, I dont' know, if your elbow keeps flaring up and you can't throw as well, something's probably not strong enough to take it!

And secondly, people misuse the phrase "with any degree of certainty". There are degrees of certainty for injury projections. Scouts for every team make them. It's what they're paid to do.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 02-09-2013, 03:13 PM
blandman blandman is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,482
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sullythered View Post
That was pretty much the point I was trying to make until I let myself get dragged into the munchiverse.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 02-09-2013, 04:36 PM
blandman blandman is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,482
Default

Okay I just can't let this go. Seriously Sully is about as off base as possible on Verlander, and I don't want people to leave this thread thinking, AT ALL, that his motion is considered violent. Verlander's motion is marveled at in the scouting community, because he is able to derive so much velocity with a minimal amount of shoulder-hip separation. The minimal amount of movement versus the velocity he creates is unparalleled at least in recent baseball history , probably all time (a large reason he is so special, because logic dictates this would minimize velocity in favor of control and less wear). There are thousands upon thousands of resources out there discussing this at length. For ANYONE to EVER claim that Justin Verlander's delivery is violent shows they have little knowledge or understanding of even the most basic of pitching mechanic dynamics.
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 02-09-2013, 05:47 PM
sullythered sullythered is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Oak Lawn, IL
Posts: 4,339
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Okay I just can't let this go. Seriously Sully is about as off base as possible on Verlander, and I don't want people to leave this thread thinking, AT ALL, that his motion is considered violent. Verlander's motion is marveled at in the scouting community, because he is able to derive so much velocity with a minimal amount of shoulder-hip separation. The minimal amount of movement versus the velocity he creates is unparalleled at least in recent baseball history , probably all time (a large reason he is so special, because logic dictates this would minimize velocity in favor of control and less wear). There are thousands upon thousands of resources out there discussing this at length. For ANYONE to EVER claim that Justin Verlander's delivery is violent shows they have little knowledge or understanding of even the most basic of pitching mechanic dynamics.
And yet he had arm fatigue and pain in his first year, and it showed in bursts of performance lag. The very same bursts of performance lag that Sale showed in a couple brief moments this past season. You used that as evidence against Sale, and it was wrong. That was my point. And again, there is no such thing as good pitching mechanics. Throwing overhand is not a natural human motion. Throwing as hard as Verlander does is absolutely violent. There was a time when people thought Mark Prior had "perfect mechanics." It's more about genetics than anything else.

Oh, and I'm still waiting for an example of when Sale was throwing an 83 mph fastball, as you mentioned earlier.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 02-09-2013, 06:16 PM
DonnieDarko DonnieDarko is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Northwest Side, 60626
Posts: 1,934
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sullythered View Post
Oh, and I'm still waiting for an example of when Sale was throwing an 83 mph fastball, as you mentioned earlier.
Same here. I remember the MPH on his Fastball decreasing to somewhere around 87-89, but a full 10 MPH off of it? I can't remember seeing that.
__________________

2014 PtC Score: 1
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 02-09-2013, 06:24 PM
sullythered sullythered is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Oak Lawn, IL
Posts: 4,339
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonnieDarko View Post
Same here. I remember the MPH on his Fastball decreasing to somewhere around 87-89, but a full 10 MPH off of it? I can't remember seeing that.
And even the drop to high 80's was for one game at a time, then he rebounded quickly. MUCH stronger evidence that it was fatigue than any kind of injury.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 02-11-2013, 09:49 AM
SephClone89 SephClone89 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oswego, IL
Posts: 5,990
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sullythered View Post
And even the drop to high 80's was for one game at a time, then he rebounded quickly. MUCH stronger evidence that it was fatigue than any kind of injury.
Usually after a skipped start was when it would jump back up.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:11 PM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.