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  #31  
Old 02-07-2013, 10:06 AM
SoxSpeed22 SoxSpeed22 is offline
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Randy Johnson would have to be the best blueprint for Sale, given his delivery and his slider. Johnson had some injury problems when he was younger. I figured if Sale was going to get a big injury, it would have been last year, but it didn't happen.
A knuckle curve is more fitting for someone with a much higher delivery than Sale, and over the top. Verlander stopped using it thanks to blistering. I would be cool with Hector or Nate learning one though.
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  #32  
Old 02-07-2013, 07:28 PM
WLL1855 WLL1855 is offline
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Oh bull ****. It's not anything that isn't 100% the main opinion of experts out there. Like I said, where is the scout saying otherwise? Where is the article without the dire predictions? It's not a given, but most everyone who's opinion matters thinks its a given. If you're going to lambast me as negative, you need to bring some proof of the positive to the table. Just calling me negative for relaying a fact to you is childish.
You've got some pretty ironclad language there. Opinions are facts now? I'm guessing you aren't unfamiliar with the taste of crow.

Until the disaster happens, I'd say the burden of proof Sale is unavoidably on track for surgery is on you. Maybe he gets an serious injury a some point in his career (not exactly a rare occurrence with baseball players, especially pitchers) Perhaps he doesn't. It's a bit premature to book the OR with Dr. James Andrews at this point.
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  #33  
Old 02-07-2013, 11:32 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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You've got some pretty ironclad language there. Opinions are facts now? I'm guessing you aren't unfamiliar with the taste of crow.

Until the disaster happens, I'd say the burden of proof Sale is unavoidably on track for surgery is on you. Maybe he gets an serious injury a some point in his career (not exactly a rare occurrence with baseball players, especially pitchers) Perhaps he doesn't. It's a bit premature to book the OR with Dr. James Andrews at this point.
You are completely ignoring what I am saying.

Sale getting injured is not a fact. I have not said Sale WILL get injured.

That scouts all believe Sale will be injured is a fact.
That experts all believe Sale will be injured is a fact.
That members of the White Sox organization believe Sale will be injured is a fact.

It's what everyone who matters thinks will happen. Deal with it. And do it without people words in peoples mouths.
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  #34  
Old 02-07-2013, 11:39 PM
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Nellie_Fox Nellie_Fox is offline
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...That scouts all believe Sale will be injured is a fact.
That experts all believe Sale will be injured is a fact.
You have access to the opinions of ALL scouts and ALL "experts?" I'm impressed.
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  #35  
Old 02-07-2013, 11:44 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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You have access to the opinions of ALL scouts and ALL "experts?" I'm impressed.
All who have bothered to speak on the matter don't share your optimism. And lots have cared to share.

And I despise points like this. It's a straw man argument. There isn't evidence to back your assertion, but he MIGHT exist? Yeah. I admit it. Someone might have a different opinion on the matter. That doesn't make it not an extreme outlier.
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  #36  
Old 02-08-2013, 12:05 AM
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All who have bothered to speak on the matter don't share your optimism. And lots have cared to share.

And I despise points like this. It's a straw man argument. There isn't evidence to back your assertion, but he MIGHT exist? Yeah. I admit it. Someone might have a different opinion on the matter. That doesn't make it not an extreme outlier.
What optimism? I haven't taken a position on the matter at all. I was merely pointing out that you claimed to know the opinion of ALL scouts and ALL "experts" on the matter. I'm skeptical that you personally know the opinion of even a substantial portion of either. And what I did does not remotely meet the definition of a "straw-man argument." I did not assign you a position you did not take and then knock that down. You exaggerated your claim to lend undeserved credibility to it.
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  #37  
Old 02-08-2013, 02:38 AM
Falstaff Falstaff is offline
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OK OK. I still believe Chris Sale long term success/endurance lies in him developing the off speedo junque, be it change-up, slurve, eephus, forkball, scroogie, or knuckle-curve. About that last one: take a look at the Burt Hooten story and marvel. Am glad Chris put on some weight, am thinking also he needs to get those heavy pitching shoes that add momentum to your stride and torque to your twist.
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  #38  
Old 02-08-2013, 03:00 PM
sullythered sullythered is offline
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That scouts all believe Sale will be injured is a fact.
That experts all believe Sale will be injured is a fact.
That members of the White Sox organization believe Sale will be injured is a fact.
Ha! The only one that you got close to correct is your third assertion. The first two are just impossible for you to know, on top of being just so overwhelmingly unlikely. The last assertion should have been phrased, "some members of the White Sox organization have concerns over Sale's ability to maintain the number of innings that come with being a starter."

You would be so much better at debate if you didn't overstate so wildly.
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  #39  
Old 02-08-2013, 03:03 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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You would be so much better at debate if you didn't overstate so wildly.
You are wrong all the time because everyone disagrees with you.

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  #40  
Old 02-08-2013, 03:10 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Ha! The only one that you got close to correct is your third assertion. The first two are just impossible for you to know, on top of being just so overwhelmingly unlikely. The last assertion should have been phrased, "some members of the White Sox organization have concerns over Sale's ability to maintain the number of innings that come with being a starter."

You would be so much better at debate if you didn't overstate so wildly.
Like I said before, if anyone says any different, their opinion isn't public knowledge. And scouts are pretty vocal people who talk to the media whenever they get a chance. Have you even met one before? Most have strong opinions and never shut up about them.

Look. Let's put it this way. Everyone's argument against me is semantics. There is nothing to challenge the notion that the opinion I've provided on Sale isn't as close to a rock solid expert opinion that you're going to find. Do something to prove that's not the case instead of making pointless arguments about semantics.

Last edited by blandman; 02-08-2013 at 03:16 PM.
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  #41  
Old 02-08-2013, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Like I said before, if anyone says any different, their opinion isn't public knowledge. And scouts are pretty vocal people who talk to the media whenever they get a chance. Have you even met one before? Most have strong opinions and never shut up about them.
You said "all." Don't try to change it now. Of course, those who have an opinion are going to be more vocal than those who don't. Nobody is going to say "player X will never get injured" because that's ridiculous. So, they'll either have an opinion that player X will get injured, or not have an opinion. Those who have no opinion generally will be silent on it.

You backed yourself into a corner; admit it. YOU think he's going to get injured, and you invented a unanimity of opinion among "experts and scouts" that doesn't exist to support your position.
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  #42  
Old 02-08-2013, 03:26 PM
sullythered sullythered is offline
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Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Like I said before, if anyone says any different, their opinion isn't public knowledge. And scouts are pretty vocal people who talk to the media whenever they get a chance. Have you even met one before? Most have strong opinions and never shut up about them.

Look. Let's put it this way. Everyone's argument against me is semantics. There is nothing to challenge the notion that the opinion I've provided on Sale isn't as close to a rock solid expert opinion that you're going to find. Do something to prove that's not the case instead of making pointless arguments about semantics.
Yes, I have met scouts and a couple former GMs. Roland Hemond was a super nice guy, BTW. The fact that Chris Sale was drafted, at all, proves your theory that all scouts believe he will absolutely get hurt is incorrect. When you start with an impossible-to-prove absolute as an argument, you've lost already.

Had you argued, say, "I worry that Chris Sale's frame and delivery put him at great risk and many experts on the subject agree with me," your argument would be valid. But no, you always decide to go with grandiose absolute statements that undermine your argument immediately.

As far as the argument about Sale's health goes, I am not as concerned. I think that if he was going to have a major injury, the most likely year it would have occurred in was last season (his first pitching close to 200 innings). He didn't get hurt. That argument has nothing to do with semantics. It is based on reality. And I didn't overstate anything, undermining my point.
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  #43  
Old 02-08-2013, 04:08 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by sullythered View Post
Yes, I have met scouts and a couple former GMs. Roland Hemond was a super nice guy, BTW. The fact that Chris Sale was drafted, at all, proves your theory that all scouts believe he will absolutely get hurt is incorrect. When you start with an impossible-to-prove absolute as an argument, you've lost already.

Had you argued, say, "I worry that Chris Sale's frame and delivery put him at great risk and many experts on the subject agree with me," your argument would be valid. But no, you always decide to go with grandiose absolute statements that undermine your argument immediately.

As far as the argument about Sale's health goes, I am not as concerned. I think that if he was going to have a major injury, the most likely year it would have occurred in was last season (his first pitching close to 200 innings). He didn't get hurt. That argument has nothing to do with semantics. It is based on reality. And I didn't overstate anything, undermining my point.
Oh I see. So it's negative to believe that he's likely to get hurt despite everything that's been said on the matter, but it's perfectly okay to believe there's little reason to believe he'll get hurt despite everything that's been said on the matter. Because, you know, kool-aid. Got it. As long as that's your take and not based on anything solid. Just making sure we understand each other. And that after six pages you haven't once made a legitimate counterpoint to the notion and continue to argue semantics.

BTW, if you knew anything about that draft, you'd know that Sale fell to us BECAUSE of his injury concerns, and because most scouts felt that for him to have a successful career, he'd be in the pen.
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  #44  
Old 02-08-2013, 04:09 PM
blandman blandman is offline
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Originally Posted by Nellie_Fox View Post
You said "all." Don't try to change it now. Of course, those who have an opinion are going to be more vocal than those who don't. Nobody is going to say "player X will never get injured" because that's ridiculous. So, they'll either have an opinion that player X will get injured, or not have an opinion. Those who have no opinion generally will be silent on it.

You backed yourself into a corner; admit it. YOU think he's going to get injured, and you invented a unanimity of opinion among "experts and scouts" that doesn't exist to support your position.
Yeah, like 12 posts ago I altered it.

And seriously, WHAT THE **** is the difference between what I said and people claiming there's no reason to believe he'll get hurt. That's not only an absolute, it's ****ing flat out wrong.
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  #45  
Old 02-08-2013, 04:16 PM
delben91 delben91 is offline
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All scouts agree that Sale is no guaranteed hall of famer like Fautino de los Santos.
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