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  #256  
Old 01-15-2013, 05:38 PM
mzh mzh is offline
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I certainly respect your opinion, as it's one I used to hold. I just don't think it's so cut-and-dried. The outlook on the steroids era will evolve, especially as the kids who grew up during the era cheering for these players take more prominent roles in baseball. I'm not saying they'll gloss it over, but they'll figure out a way to honor the era, warts and all.
I think that this is completely untrue. Full disclosure: I'm a high school student. And almost every baseball player on my team or baseball fan that I know that's my age or younger are fully aware that what Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, or whoever you name did was blatant cheating. Most of my teammates and classmates at this point can hardly remember the home run chases of the late 90s, and frankly don't care whether they 'saved the game' or not. The people that I know today who became baseball fans simply because of home runs aren't the baseball fans who follow the game closely enough to have a stake in what records are broken, or who gets into the Hall of Fame.

I've grown up watching player after player from sport after sport be suspended, banned, ostracized, and in some cases almost imprisoned because of PEDs. I've grown up knowing that those players cheated, and I can't believe that anybody else who has thinks that they deserve to be rewarded because of some convoluted idea that they rescued the floundering game of baseball. If anything, the idea that we of my generation should accept them just because people weren't complaining at the time seems ludicrous.

Look, point is, the fact that they did what they did is not going to go away. Sooner or later, there are going to be far more people who know Barry Bonds for being a lying, cheating scumbag than who know him for being a fantastic athlete who was putting up 30/30 seasons regardless of PEDs. I don't understand why there would be any reason to forgive or forget. What happens if Giancarlo Stanton puts up 65 HR in a season, or if Bryce Harper eventually passes 755? I think anyone who supported Barry or Mark or Sammy because of their hyperinflated bull**** stats that 'saved' the game are going to be irrelevant. The players will be irrelevant. In 70 years, It's gonna be nothing more than the Sox throwing the Series, or Pete Rose betting on ballgames.

That, to me, is the bottom line. Do they really deserve to be enshrined for that? Records that people know are empty, or an era that will be written off as tainted and bogus? Ty Cobb was a racist schmuck, but racism ain't got nothing to do with 4,000 hits. PEDs are a different story. Other than that, it's all beside the point.
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  #257  
Old 01-15-2013, 05:58 PM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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Originally Posted by mzh View Post
I think that this is completely untrue. Full disclosure: I'm a high school student. And almost every baseball player on my team or baseball fan that I know that's my age or younger are fully aware that what Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, or whoever you name did was blatant cheating. Most of my teammates and classmates at this point can hardly remember the home run chases of the late 90s, and frankly don't care whether they 'saved the game' or not. The people that I know today who became baseball fans simply because of home runs aren't the baseball fans who follow the game closely enough to have a stake in what records are broken, or who gets into the Hall of Fame.

I've grown up watching player after player from sport after sport be suspended, banned, ostracized, and in some cases almost imprisoned because of PEDs. I've grown up knowing that those players cheated, and I can't believe that anybody else who has thinks that they deserve to be rewarded because of some convoluted idea that they rescued the floundering game of baseball. If anything, the idea that we of my generation should accept them just because people weren't complaining at the time seems ludicrous.

Look, point is, the fact that they did what they did is not going to go away. Sooner or later, there are going to be far more people who know Barry Bonds for being a lying, cheating scumbag than who know him for being a fantastic athlete who was putting up 30/30 seasons regardless of PEDs. I don't understand why there would be any reason to forgive or forget. What happens if Giancarlo Stanton puts up 65 HR in a season, or if Bryce Harper eventually passes 755? I think anyone who supported Barry or Mark or Sammy because of their hyperinflated bull**** stats that 'saved' the game are going to be irrelevant. The players will be irrelevant. In 70 years, It's gonna be nothing more than the Sox throwing the Series, or Pete Rose betting on ballgames.

That, to me, is the bottom line. Do they really deserve to be enshrined for that? Records that people know are empty, or an era that will be written off as tainted and bogus? Ty Cobb was a racist schmuck, but racism ain't got nothing to do with 4,000 hits. PEDs are a different story. Other than that, it's all beside the point.

I don't know about this, again just because Bonds, Clemens and company used better steroids than players of the past and players were deff using pre 1993. Why should they get penalized and nobody else.
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  #258  
Old 01-15-2013, 06:18 PM
mzh mzh is offline
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Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
I don't know about this, again just because Bonds, Clemens and company used better steroids than players of the past and players were deff using pre 1993. Why should they get penalized and nobody else.
Because Babe Ruth didn't have steroids, Mickey Mantle didn't have steroids, Willie Mays didn't have steroids, Roger Maris didn't have steroids, and Hank Aaron didn't have steroids. It's been beaten to death in this thread- illegal anabolic steroids and greenies, coke, meth, or whatever else you want to throw out there are NOT the same thing.
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  #259  
Old 01-15-2013, 06:48 PM
Hendu Hendu is offline
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Originally Posted by mzh View Post
I think that this is completely untrue. Full disclosure: I'm a high school student. And almost every baseball player on my team or baseball fan that I know that's my age or younger are fully aware that what Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, or whoever you name did was blatant cheating. Most of my teammates and classmates at this point can hardly remember the home run chases of the late 90s, and frankly don't care whether they 'saved the game' or not. The people that I know today who became baseball fans simply because of home runs aren't the baseball fans who follow the game closely enough to have a stake in what records are broken, or who gets into the Hall of Fame.

I've grown up watching player after player from sport after sport be suspended, banned, ostracized, and in some cases almost imprisoned because of PEDs. I've grown up knowing that those players cheated, and I can't believe that anybody else who has thinks that they deserve to be rewarded because of some convoluted idea that they rescued the floundering game of baseball. If anything, the idea that we of my generation should accept them just because people weren't complaining at the time seems ludicrous. Step back from your black-and-white stance for a second to at least acknowledge there's a decent probability of this happening.

Look, point is, the fact that they did what they did is not going to go away. Sooner or later, there are going to be far more people who know Barry Bonds for being a lying, cheating scumbag than who know him for being a fantastic athlete who was putting up 30/30 seasons regardless of PEDs. I don't understand why there would be any reason to forgive or forget. What happens if Giancarlo Stanton puts up 65 HR in a season, or if Bryce Harper eventually passes 755? I think anyone who supported Barry or Mark or Sammy because of their hyperinflated bull**** stats that 'saved' the game are going to be irrelevant. The players will be irrelevant. In 70 years, It's gonna be nothing more than the Sox throwing the Series, or Pete Rose betting on ballgames.

That, to me, is the bottom line. Do they really deserve to be enshrined for that? Records that people know are empty, or an era that will be written off as tainted and bogus? Ty Cobb was a racist schmuck, but racism ain't got nothing to do with 4,000 hits. PEDs are a different story. Other than that, it's all beside the point.
Come back to me in 10 years when the emotion of the issue has died down, and history is seen in a different light. Just like Jim Rice, Raines, Blyleven, etc. you will have a bunch of writers who watched these guys play as youngsters building cases, and their vote totals will start going up. If that doesn't happen, the Veterans Committee will have changed guard to guys who were Bonds', Clemens', etc. peers and know how pervasive this was during the era. Even Cal Ripken has said he isn't in a position to judge these players.

Again this has nothing to do with Pete Rose or the Black Sox, who were officially banned from baseball.
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  #260  
Old 01-15-2013, 06:58 PM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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Because Babe Ruth didn't have steroids, Mickey Mantle didn't have steroids, Willie Mays didn't have steroids, Roger Maris didn't have steroids, and Hank Aaron didn't have steroids. It's been beaten to death in this thread- illegal anabolic steroids and greenies, coke, meth, or whatever else you want to throw out there are NOT the same thing.
Well comparing the greenies to steroids of today has been beaten to death to but the fact that players of the past were using drugs for unfair advantages is enough for me to think differently about this. I feel Nolan Ryan was using but because nobody cared back then his strikeout records isn't tainted. I already know theres no proof on Ryan but theres probably more evidence he used than Clemens. The mod is probably right too there really is no agreeing on this subject.
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  #261  
Old 01-15-2013, 07:10 PM
Hendu Hendu is offline
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The mod is probably right too there really is no agreeing on this subject.
Right. Maybe another question to ask, instead of whether they should get in, do you think they will get in someday down the road?

I think it's going to be very tough to keep them out forever. Like I wrote before, even some of the writers who didn't vote for them have conceded the point that they'll probably be in someday.
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  #262  
Old 01-15-2013, 07:21 PM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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Right. Maybe another question to ask, instead of whether they should get in, do you think they will get in someday down the road?

I think it's going to be very tough to keep them out forever. Like I wrote before, even some of the writers who didn't vote for them have conceded the point that they'll probably be in someday.
it would be interesting if their was a poll. It would probably be around 70% no and 30 percent yes but I think your right it will eventually change as the years go by.

I hate how the records were broken but I do what alot of people do and look at Maris and Aaron as the leaders. The way I see it there are some steroid users who are hofers and some who are not. I really do feel if these records weren't broken that the percentages would be alot different too.
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