HOF Ballot Announced: Liars, Cheaters, and Scumbags Included

[chicagowhitesox1]

Originally Posted by Bob Roarman

You don't have to like it, but that's just the reality of what happened. Those home runs, Sammy vs. McGwire, you could probably throw in Ripken's record as well. All PED fueled saviors of the game.

Yeah I hate how the records have been tarnished and it's hard to think Ripken ever used but it's probably true. Thats kinda why I have a hard time with Clemens and Bonds being left out. If those two aren't ever elected i'll respect that but I just hope the writers keep the right guys out.

[Bob Roarman]

But you got "wrong" guys in the Hall of Fame already. There are ****ing racists in the HOF. I really don't care to hear what these purists think about recent players' "character" and "integrity" while upholding that. And to think that there isn't already a player in the Hall that used steroids or any type of PED is just being naive. It can't be both ways.

If those people want to accept those past HOF players on the warped basis of them being some kind of product of the attitudes of their time or whatever excuse people like TDog want to come up for it, then you make the same type distinctions for this era and every other era. Everything else has changed anyways. There's been a complete re-design of baseball parks, the dimensions, the mound has been lowered, the fences brought in, etc. You've got players' roles that have changed, 1 inning closers, 200 inning pitchers, middle relief, long relief,etc. Things have changed drastically.

The job itself of being a pro ball player has changed immensely. Completely different today, simply with the advancement of science, medical procedures, all the different work-out/dietary regimens, supplements, updated understandings of practically everything related to the game, the list goes on and on and that's before even getting to PEDs. As ridiculous as he usually sounds about just anything else, Jose Canseco probably hit the nail on the head when he talked about how in 40 to 50 years from now, people will look back at these arguments and laugh at how ridiculous they were. People can hate it all they want today, but PEDs are part of the game now and forever.

[TDog]

Originally Posted by Bob Roarman

But you got "wrong" guys in the Hall of Fame already. There are ****ing racists in the HOF. I really don't care to hear what these purists think about recent players' "character" and "integrity" while upholding that. And to think that there isn't already a player in the Hall that used steroids or any type of PED is just being naive. It can't be both ways.

If those people want to accept those past HOF players on the warped basis of them being some kind of product of the attitudes of their time or whatever excuse people like TDog want to come up for it, then you make the same type distinctions for this era and every other era. Everything else has changed anyways. There's been a complete re-design of baseball parks, the dimensions, the mound has been lowered, the fences brought in, etc. You've got players' roles that have changed, 1 inning closers, 200 inning pitchers, middle relief, long relief,etc. Things have changed drastically.

The job itself of being a pro ball player has changed immensely. Completely different today, simply with the advancement of science, medical procedures, all the different work-out/dietary regimens, supplements, updated understandings of practically everything related to the game, the list goes on and on and that's before even getting to PEDs. As ridiculous as he usually sounds about just anything else, Jose Canseco probably hit the nail on the head when he talked about how in 40 to 50 years from now, people will look back at these arguments and laugh at how ridiculous they were. People can hate it all they want today, but PEDs are part of the game now and forever.

If you don't like racists in the Hall of Fame, you wouldn't want Barry Bonds in the Hall of Fame. I heard that Bonds told Ron Kittle he wouldn't sign for white people, in support of a charity no less, long before Ron's book was written. And that was consistent with some high-profile interviews Bonds gave. But that isn't why Bonds isn't in the Hall of Fame. And if Joes Canseco has any credibility a half century from now, I doubt it will be as a prophet.

The fact is, neither the all-time hits leader or the all-time home run leader in major league baseball are in the Baseball Hall of Fame, not because they were/are lousy excuses for human beings but because they betrayed baseball. Pete Rose and Barry Bonds not being in the Hall of Fame, Ty Cobb and Jim Rice being in the Hall of Fame are facts consistent with what the Hall of Fame has always been.

I'm not making excuses. From what I've been reading, the evils of Ty Cobb's life has been exaggerated, but even in its exaggeration, he was never accused of betraying baseball, which is where the character and integrity clause applies, and how it was applied to Hal Chase by the voters who put Ty Cobb in. What I have been writing is consistent with reality, however unacceptable you consider the reality. I am looking at what the Hall of Fame is and has been my entire life. The fact that there may be players in the Hall of Fame who got away with cheating does not mean all cheating should be ignored. It is you who wants to make the Hall fo Fame something it's not.

If people stop caring about steroid use in baseball, Bonds will get into the Hall of Fame. But I doubt they will anytime soon.

[Nellie_Fox]

Originally Posted by Bob Roarman

But you got "wrong" guys in the Hall of Fame already. There are ****ing racists in the HOF. I really don't care to hear what these purists think about recent players' "character" and "integrity" while upholding that. And to think that there isn't already a player in the Hall that used steroids or any type of PED is just being naive. It can't be both ways.

If those people want to accept those past HOF players on the warped basis of them being some kind of product of the attitudes of their time or whatever excuse people like TDog want to come up for it, then you make the same type distinctions for this era and every other era. Everything else has changed anyways. There's been a complete re-design of baseball parks, the dimensions, the mound has been lowered, the fences brought in, etc. You've got players' roles that have changed, 1 inning closers, 200 inning pitchers, middle relief, long relief,etc. Things have changed drastically.

The job itself of being a pro ball player has changed immensely. Completely different today, simply with the advancement of science, medical procedures, all the different work-out/dietary regimens, supplements, updated understandings of practically everything related to the game, the list goes on and on and that's before even getting to PEDs. As ridiculous as he usually sounds about just anything else, Jose Canseco probably hit the nail on the head when he talked about how in 40 to 50 years from now, people will look back at these arguments and laugh at how ridiculous they were. People can hate it all they want today, but PEDs are part of the game now and forever.

Haven't you beaten this to death yet? We get it, you're fine with steroids, you don't care if everybody in sports juices up to their eyeballs. We get it.

[Bob Roarman]

Nellie if you've got nothing else to add, I suggest you just ignore me.

[Nellie_Fox]

Originally Posted by Bob Roarman

Nellie if you've got nothing else to add, I suggest you just ignore me.

As much as I'd like to, moderators read the posts.

[Bob Roarman]

Originally Posted by TDog

If you don't like racists in the Hall of Fame, you wouldn't want Barry Bonds in the Hall of Fame. I heard that Bonds told Ron Kittle he wouldn't sign for white people, in support of a charity no less, long before Ron's book was written. And that was consistent with some high-profile interviews Bonds gave. But that isn't why Bonds isn't in the Hall of Fame. And if Joes Canseco has any credibility a half century from now, I doubt it will be as a prophet.

The fact is, neither the all-time hits leader or the all-time home run leader in major league baseball are in the Baseball Hall of Fame, not because they were/are lousy excuses for human beings but because they betrayed baseball. Pete Rose and Barry Bonds not being in the Hall of Fame, Ty Cobb and Jim Rice being in the Hall of Fame are facts consistent with what the Hall of Fame has always been.

I'm not making excuses. From what I've been reading, the evils of Ty Cobb's life has been exaggerated, but even in its exaggeration, he was never accused of betraying baseball, which is where the character and integrity clause applies, and how it was applied to Hal Chase by the voters who put Ty Cobb in. What I have been writing is consistent with reality, however unacceptable you consider the reality. I am looking at what the Hall of Fame is and has been my entire life. The fact that there may be players in the Hall of Fame who got away with cheating does not mean all cheating should be ignored. It is you who wants to make the Hall fo Fame something it's not.

If people stop caring about steroid use in baseball, Bonds will get into the Hall of Fame. But I doubt they will anytime soon.

Noo, no, you're not turning that around on me. Nice try though. It's the double standard you hold. Until people like you realize they've already had cheaters and scumbags and liars in your precious Hall of Fame for years, you'll never be able to reconcile the future of baseball. If you can't even make distinctions between every era, which is the only real way to go with it anyway, even withoout the introduction of PEDs, then you should just forget about the Hall of Fame and it's outdated, overly political processes, one year a player isn't worthy, 2 years later he is, forget it. It's ****ing rubbish. It's a prop of old Americana. That time is over. Done with. Things change, nothing stays the same, baseball sure as hell hasn't and it'll continue to evolve. So either live in the past or adapt to the future.

[Bob Roarman]

Originally Posted by Nellie_Fox

As much as I'd like to, moderators read the posts.

I meant as in not responding if you aren't going to participate in the discussion except with comments like that.

[Wedema]

Originally Posted by TDog

If you don't like racists in the Hall of Fame, you wouldn't want Barry Bonds in the Hall of Fame. I heard that Bonds told Ron Kittle he wouldn't sign for white people, in support of a charity no less, long before Ron's book was written. And that was consistent with some high-profile interviews Bonds gave. But that isn't why Bonds isn't in the Hall of Fame. And if Joes Canseco has any credibility a half century from now, I doubt it will be as a prophet.

The fact is, neither the all-time hits leader or the all-time home run leader in major league baseball are in the Baseball Hall of Fame, not because they were/are lousy excuses for human beings but because they betrayed baseball. Pete Rose and Barry Bonds not being in the Hall of Fame, Ty Cobb and Jim Rice being in the Hall of Fame are facts consistent with what the Hall of Fame has always been.

I'm not making excuses. From what I've been reading, the evils of Ty Cobb's life has been exaggerated, but even in its exaggeration, he was never accused of betraying baseball, which is where the character and integrity clause applies, and how it was applied to Hal Chase by the voters who put Ty Cobb in. What I have been writing is consistent with reality, however unacceptable you consider the reality. I am looking at what the Hall of Fame is and has been my entire life. The fact that there may be players in the Hall of Fame who got away with cheating does not mean all cheating should be ignored. It is you who wants to make the Hall fo Fame something it's not.

If people stop caring about steroid use in baseball, Bonds will get into the Hall of Fame. But I doubt they will anytime soon.

Bonds signed for me outside of the Cell in 2003 and I am white. He put down his bags and signed for everyone (40-50 people) that was outside that afternoon. Kittle is the jerk who won't sign his rookie card even at Sox Fest.

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by Bob Roarman

I meant as in not responding if you aren't going to participate in the discussion except with comments like that.

Nellie has been actively participating in this thread from the beginning. I don't know where the hell you think you get off telling anyone on this board they're not allowed to comment in a thread, but you certainly need to learn to put the big boy pants on and deal with the fact that some very smart people out there don't always agree with your opinion on every subject.

[Hendu]

Originally Posted by SI1020

Absolutely. Look what PED's did for cycling. Bring them back. While we're at it cut the hypocrisy. Next year we can have frenzied fans yelling "Barry! Barry!" at his induction ceremony. The same for Roger and Sammy, although I suppose Sammy will bring an interpreter for his induction speech. Maybe one of them will be big enough to acknowledge Tom House for his trailblazing efforts. Let's not stop there. Pete Rose needs to get enshrined soon too. Let's have a special wing for Chick Gandil, Sport Sullivan, Abe Atell and Arnold Rothstein. Once upon a time gambling saved baseball. So much work to do. Then on to basketball. Jack Molinas, for starters needs to be recognized for his contributions.

PEDs put cycling on the map in the States...before Lance Armstrong, interest in competitive cycling was practically non-existent here. Steroids also did save baseball in the late 90s. The surge in attendance and money bears that out, as interest had been in serious decline after the strike.

You don't have to like it, but at the time it was absolutely true. We all wanted to see superhuman feats in sports, and that's exactly what we got.

As for House, so what if he was an unremarkable journeyman (he was also a respected pitching coach)? Look at the types of players that have been testing positive since MLB implemented testing - the Tom Houses of the league are much more likely to test positive than the superstars.

[Bob Roarman]

Originally Posted by doublem23

Nellie has been actively participating in this thread from the beginning. I don't know where the hell you think you get off telling anyone on this board they're not allowed to comment in a thread, but you certainly need to learn to put the big boy pants on and deal with the fact that some very smart people out there don't always agree with your opinion on every subject.

I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, I'm more than happy to discuss it with them. But that kind of response? Screw that. If that's all you have to say, which adds absolutely nothing to the conversation, why even bother? I didn't say he couldn't post, just if that's what his response to ME is going to entail, I suggest he don't even waste the time to type it out.

[Nellie_Fox]

Originally Posted by Bob Roarman

I meant as in not responding if you aren't going to participate in the discussion except with comments like that.

Originally Posted by Bob Roarman

I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, I'm more than happy to discuss it with them. But that kind of response? Screw that. If that's all you have to say, which adds absolutely nothing to the conversation, why even bother? I didn't say he couldn't post, just if that's what his response to ME is going to entail, I suggest he don't even waste the time to type it out.

The point I was trying to make is that you haven't said anything new in pages. You just keep saying the same things over and over again. We get it; you've made your argument for allowing steroids and honoring steroid users. How many different times do you need to say it? This thread has been pretty much exhausted, but I've resisted the urge to close it.

[TDog]

Originally Posted by Bob Roarman

Noo, no, you're not turning that around on me. Nice try though. It's the double standard you hold. Until people like you realize they've already had cheaters and scumbags and liars in your precious Hall of Fame for years, you'll never be able to reconcile the future of baseball. If you can't even make distinctions between every era, which is the only real way to go with it anyway, even withoout the introduction of PEDs, then you should just forget about the Hall of Fame and it's outdated, overly political processes, one year a player isn't worthy, 2 years later he is, forget it. It's ****ing rubbish. It's a prop of old Americana. That time is over. Done with. Things change, nothing stays the same, baseball sure as hell hasn't and it'll continue to evolve. So either live in the past or adapt to the future.

Did America legalize anabolic steroids?

You are missing the point. Steroids and gambling go to the integrity, not just of the individual, but of the game and the individual's relationship to the game. The character/integrity clause is about the sport.

Steroids damaged the integrity of baseball. That isn't an antiquated belief of someone who resists change. That is a fact. The fact that the Sosa/McGwire home run chase got more people interested in baseball only means that more people were let down when the truth came out.

You might not care about steroids in baseball, but it is a cynical belief, and one that the great majority baseball fans don't want to share (one that people who hate baseball are more apt to believe because it is anti-baseball.) This isn't about purists not recognizing the advances (legal or not) of science. The game is supposed to be honest. The Hall of Fame is supposed to be honest. I don't know of any Hall of Famer who damaged the integrity of the game. And if you're talking about wrongs that people do, American law recognizes the difference between misdemeanors and felonies. The Catholic Church makes a distinction between venial and mortal sins.

Even if you insist that the numbers should get Bonds in anyway, contrary to the widespread belief that he severely damaged the integrity of the game, the widespread belief about his numbers are that they are meaningless.

[Hendu]

Originally Posted by TDog

Even if you insist that the numbers should get Bonds in anyway, contrary to the widespread belief that he severely damaged the integrity of the game, the widespread belief about his numbers are that they are meaningless.

It's not that widespread. Despite everything you just mentioned, Bonds still received 35% of the BBWAA vote, during a year where writers were making a statement against PEDs. Many of the writers who didn't vote for Bonds and Clemens acknowledge that they will probably get in some day.

I certainly respect your opinion, as it's one I used to hold. I just don't think it's so cut-and-dried. The outlook on the steroids era will evolve, especially as the kids who grew up during the era cheering for these players take more prominent roles in baseball. I'm not saying they'll gloss it over, but they'll figure out a way to honor the era, warts and all.