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  #196  
Old 01-10-2013, 11:00 PM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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Originally Posted by RKMeibalane View Post
Source? Information? This looks a lot like the post that was moved to the Roadhouse earlier this evening.
I'll try to get info on this. It's been awhile since I found out about this. But again I'm not saying this happened but that it's only a rumor.
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  #197  
Old 01-10-2013, 11:19 PM
Hendu Hendu is offline
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Why does any of this matter? You said it yourself- cheating is cheating is cheating. End of story. Period. Was Pete Rose a HOFer before he bet on games? Absolutely. Was Joe Jackson a HOFer before he threw a World Series? No doubt. There's no reason why some players should be forgiven for cheating just because they were great players beforehand.
It's interesting to compare Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose to the current situation, but there's a huuuuge difference. The commissioner in both cases had the balls to actually ban them. Now we have idiot BBWA voters with no guidance getting to decide who was and wasn't clean.

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Originally Posted by spawn View Post
And cocaine isn't a performance enhancer. And this isn't meant to excuse his drug use, but according to Raines himself, his performance suffered because of his drug use.
According to many steroid users, steroids hampered their performance (I'll bring up Tom House again). Probably there is some truth on both sides though - take the wrong kind of steroids and it's going to hamper a player's performance; take too much coke and it'll do the same. But absolutely taken in the right quantities, cocaine is a performance enhancer - how else were players partying all night, and still playing 160+ games?


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Originally Posted by spawn View Post
McGwire has admitted to taking steroids. And again, you keep glossing over the fact that it is illegal. Baseball may not have had a policy in place, but the federal government did.
.
And cocaine isn't?? BTW, when Manny tested positive he had a prescription.

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Originally Posted by TDog View Post

The Hall of Fame is not about the numbers
This is what has watered down the HOF about as much as steroids will. Jim Rice didn't have HOF-worthy career numbers but he got in because he was a "feared hitter" for a few years. Jack Morris will probably get in despite his borderline numbers because everybody remembers a couple amazing posteseasons. Rizzuto got in because he was a Yankee. Mazeroski got in because he hit a WS-winning walkoff homer. Etc.
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  #198  
Old 01-11-2013, 12:25 AM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by Hendu View Post
...
This is what has watered down the HOF about as much as steroids will. Jim Rice didn't have HOF-worthy career numbers but he got in because he was a "feared hitter" for a few years. Jack Morris will probably get in despite his borderline numbers because everybody remembers a couple amazing posteseasons. Rizzuto got in because he was a Yankee. Mazeroski got in because he hit a WS-winning walkoff homer. Etc.
The Hall of Fame has never been about the numbers. The charge of the voters states that they are supposed to consider character, integrity and sportstmanship. It does not say they are supposed to consider numbers.

Barry Bonds numbers are meaningless. Even if it were about the numbers, they wouldn't qualify him for the Hall of Fame. In any case, the infamous don't belong in the Hall of Fame.
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  #199  
Old 01-11-2013, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
Gaylod Perry wrote a book admitting how he cheated yet I don't think any umpire ever caught him



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Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
--Barry Bonds..No doubt hofer, steroids did inflate his numbers but he would have ended up with 600 homeruns regardless.
--Roger Clemens....Same as Bonds, he would have ended up with hof numbers without roids.
There is still the "character and sportsmanship" consideration for the HOF. When they decided to use roids, they violated that part.

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Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
Those are totally different arguments. Personally I feel Joe Jackson should have been put in 60 years ago when he died. Thats when his lifetime ban ended.
That's a misconception. Joe wasn't given a lifetime ban, he is on the "permanently ineligible" list. There's a difference.
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  #200  
Old 01-11-2013, 01:03 AM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Nellie_Fox View Post



There is still the "character and sportsmanship" consideration for the HOF. When they decided to use roids, they violated that part.

That's a misconception. Joe wasn't given a lifetime ban, he is on the "permanently ineligible" list. There's a difference.

These players who used roids were wrong for using them but cmon half the players in the hall of fame are racists, drunks and cheats. At least the roid users bought fans back to baseball. I guarantee if we listed every player in the hof at least 45-50 percent would have a character flaw thats well known. To me it just shows that writers have no clue on the history of baseball. They feel they are making baseball moral again when baseball has been corrupt since the start.

I forgot about Perry getting caught but cmon it still took em basically until he retired before he got caught. I'm still impressed.

On the Joe Jackson thing, I didn't realize he was on a ineligable list. but still I think it's time to forgive the poor guy and let him in.
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  #201  
Old 01-11-2013, 01:06 AM
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I forgot about Perry getting caught but cmon it still took em basically until he retired before he got caught. I'm still impressed.
Cheating doesn't impress me.
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  #202  
Old 01-11-2013, 01:09 AM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Nellie_Fox View Post
Cheating doesn't impress me.
In baseball cheating impresses me because it's part of the game and always has been and always will be. In regular life cheating doesn't impress me.
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  #203  
Old 01-11-2013, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Hendu View Post
And cocaine isn't?? BTW, when Manny tested positive he had a prescription.
Where did I say it was? Just pointing out that even though MLB didn't have a policy against steroid use, it was still against the law. I thought that was pretty obvious.

Did Bonds have a prescription? McGwire? Palmeiro? If not.....still illegal.
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  #204  
Old 01-11-2013, 07:42 AM
Golden Sox Golden Sox is offline
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People seem to forget that Joe Jackson and the other so called Black Sox were put on trial in criminal court and were all found not guilty. Jackson was told by his lawyer that if he was found not guilty he would be playing baseball again. I'm surprised to this day that the Black Sox didn't sue MLB for being banned from the game after being found not guilty in criminal court.
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  #205  
Old 01-11-2013, 07:54 AM
Hendu Hendu is offline
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Originally Posted by spawn View Post
Where did I say it was? Just pointing out that even though MLB didn't have a policy against steroid use, it was still against the law. I thought that was pretty obvious.

Did Bonds have a prescription? McGwire? Palmeiro? If not.....still illegal.

Palmeiro and Bonds never injected themselves with steroids, so they had plausible deniability. The whole "I thought it was a B-12 shot" or "I never knowingly took steroids" excuses. Their trainers were the ones who the Feds went after. When McGwire was taking Andro, it was available over the counter at GNC.

But amphetamines are as big of a deal as PEDs for sure. The only difference is we don't have images of guys in front of Congress flat-out lying or being evasive, so the steroids issue just seems dirtier and seedier.

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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
The Hall of Fame has never been about the numbers. The charge of the voters states that they are supposed to consider character, integrity and sportstmanship. It does not say they are supposed to consider numbers.

Barry Bonds numbers are meaningless. Even if it were about the numbers, they wouldn't qualify him for the Hall of Fame. In any case, the infamous don't belong in the Hall of Fame.
The outdated and often ignored character clause. The HOF isn't only about the numbers, but it's about 90% about the numbers. Bonds and Clemens aren't outright banned from the HOF like Rose and Shoeless Joe, so they will get in eventually. Even many of this year's no voters have conceded that point.
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  #206  
Old 01-11-2013, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Hendu View Post
Palmeiro and Bonds never injected themselves with steroids, so they had plausible deniability. The whole "I thought it was a B-12 shot" or "I never knowingly took steroids" excuses. Their trainers were the ones who the Feds went after. When McGwire was taking Andro, it was available over the counter at GNC.
McGwire didn't just use andro. He admitted to steroid use during his career in 2010. Palmeiro tested positive, B12 be damned. Bonds may not have tested positive, but considering the transformation of his body tells me all I need to know.
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  #207  
Old 01-11-2013, 08:14 AM
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People seem to forget that Joe Jackson and the other so called Black Sox were put on trial in criminal court and were all found not guilty. Jackson was told by his lawyer that if he was found not guilty he would be playing baseball again. I'm surprised to this day that the Black Sox didn't sue MLB for being banned from the game after being found not guilty in criminal court.
No one forgets that. They would never have won. If his attorney really did tell him that, it wasn't his place to do so.
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  #208  
Old 01-11-2013, 09:21 AM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by spawn View Post
No one forgets that. They would never have won. If his attorney really did tell him that, it wasn't his place to do so.
I am by no means a legal scholar but during MLB Network's recent roundtable discussion about the HOF Tom Verducci pointed out that rule 21-B (which forbids gambling on games) was made AFTER the Black Sox scandal. So the Black Sox might have had some leg to stand on by saying the suspension was made ex post facto, but I am not sure that would work. It would have required MLB to have a much stronger union certainly.
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  #209  
Old 01-11-2013, 10:57 AM
Hendu Hendu is offline
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McGwire didn't just use andro. He admitted to steroid use during his career in 2010. Palmeiro tested positive, B12 be damned. Bonds may not have tested positive, but considering the transformation of his body tells me all I need to know.
But from a legal perspective, they were in a grey area unless they were buying the products, selling them and/or injecting themselves. Instead they let the doctors/trainers/labs take the legal risks, while they could plead ignorance. It's part of the reason why Clemens was acquitted and Bonds was only hit with a slap on the wrist for "evasive answers" when they were tried for perjury. The government didn't even bother with Palmeiro.

I also think that PEDs are only one factor in the crazy numbers of the era. Firstly, pitching talent was at one of its lowest points. Secondly, spacious parks were being replaced with new bandboxes and that took some adjusting. And thirdly, hitters were able to wear body armor and stand on top of the plate with no fear of the inside pitch. How many times did we see an inside fast ball bounce off Barry's robo-arm thing without him even flinching?
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  #210  
Old 01-11-2013, 11:04 AM
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But from a legal perspective, they were in a grey area unless they were buying the products, selling them and/or injecting themselves. Instead they let the doctors/trainers/labs take the legal risks, while they could plead ignorance. It's part of the reason why Clemens was acquitted and Bonds was only hit with a slap on the wrist for "evasive answers" when they were tried for perjury. The government didn't even bother with Palmeiro.

I also think that PEDs are only one factor in the crazy numbers of the era. Firstly, pitching talent was at one of its lowest points. Secondly, spacious parks were being replaced with new bandboxes and that took some adjusting. And thirdly, hitters were able to wear body armor and stand on top of the plate with no fear of the inside pitch. How many times did we see an inside fast ball bounce off Barry's robo-arm thing without him even flinching?
So what you're saying is you think they should get in because there is no conclusive evidence that they cheated? Well, you can have them. At least the BBWAA doesn't agree with your assessment. Smaller parks and body armour don't account for a complete body transformation. I don't need any lawyers to tell me what my eyes can readily see.

I still say the HOF voting is a joke, but if they keep these clowns out, I'm ok with that.
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