Sox Seek More Offensive Balance...

[Nellie_Fox]

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

I see Flowers putting up something like .240/.340 with 20 homers next year. I don't see AJ having that type of obp and power. Although that porch in the Bronx might make it happen. When you factor in the defense and the contract, it's a no-brainer IMO. So, yeah AJ might have a similar offensive year, but won't be nearly as good defensively. Obviously, I weigh defense heavily when I look at a catcher.

Wow, you're looking at a totally different guy than I am.

[dickallen15]

One thing to keep in mind about Flowers is he is not 23 or 24 years old. I think he is slightly older than Gordon Beckham, so everyone who thinks Beckham can't get better, shouldn't be thinking Flowers is going to suddenly improve offensively. Defensively, if he becomes the regular, it will be interesting to see how he holds up playing more often. He could be fine, the increased workload could work against him.

The thing that really concerns me offensively besides his lack of contact, is he has been very slow with adjustments. They find your weaknesses fast at this level, and he is going to have to fix that.

[russ99]

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

He's also 37 years old and had an eyebrow raising power spike in a contract year. He had a great offensive year for a catcher, but was really bad behind the plate.

I see Flowers putting up something like .240/.340 with 20 homers next year. I don't see AJ having that type of obp and power. Although that porch in the Bronx might make it happen. When you factor in the defense and the contract, it's a no-brainer IMO. So, yeah AJ might have a similar offensive year, but won't be nearly as good defensively. Obviously, I weigh defense heavily when I look at a catcher.

There's more to hitting than power. .240/20 isn't acceptable as a major league regular unless you can hide him in the 9 spot, and you can't hide 2-3 guys in the 9 spot.

Comes down to if you prefer a Karkovice or a Kendall at catcher.

I vastly prefer offense from a catcher over defense as long as he can work with the pitchers. As far as CS is concerned, that's not just on the catcher, our pitchers are notorious for not holding runners to the bag, especially since Buehrle left, plus even the best guys average 40-48% CS.

If A.J. isn't coming back, sounds like the Sox may go after a less expensive experienced guy to platoon, which would be a worse stopgap for a year than A.J., but I guess it would be adequate.

[Frater Perdurabo]

Originally Posted by russ99

I vastly prefer offense from a catcher over defense as long as he can work with the pitchers. As far as CS is concerned, that's not just on the catcher, our pitchers are notorious for not holding runners to the bag, especially since Buehrle left, plus even the best guys average 40-48% CS.

There's more to defense than throwing out base runners.

I want the player who handles the ball more than any other player on the field (besides the pitcher) to be a damn good fielder.

Passed balls lead to unearned runs and put undue stress on pitchers, leading to earlier exits and more bullpen innings.

I want great defense behind the plate.

[TaylorStSox]

Originally Posted by russ99

There's more to hitting than power. .240/20 isn't acceptable as a major league regular unless you can hide him in the 9 spot, and you can't hide 2-3 guys in the 9 spot.

Comes down to if you prefer a Karkovice or a Kendall at catcher.

I vastly prefer offense from a catcher over defense as long as he can work with the pitchers. As far as CS is concerned, that's not just on the catcher, our pitchers are notorious for not holding runners to the bag, especially since Buehrle left, plus even the best guys average 40-48% CS.

If A.J. isn't coming back, sounds like the Sox may go after a less expensive experienced guy to platoon, which would be a worse stopgap for a year than A.J., but I guess it would be adequate.

.240/.340/20 isn't acceptable for a catcher? What world do you live in?

Comparing Flowers to Beckham is ridiculous. Beckham has over 2,000 MLB PA's. He's played consistently for 4 years. Flowers has never had consistent AB's.

Throwing out runners is a small part of what a catcher does. I want an athletic catcher that moves well behind the plate and blocks pitches. Watch the way AJ calls pitches. He very rarely calls for out pitches or balls in the dirt because he can't get down and block them anymore. IMO, AJ's pitch calling leaves a lot to be desired. The pitcher's seem to like working with Flowers, so I don't think that's going to be a problem.

Most of our pitchers haven't been any different than other teams as far as holding runners. That's a Hawk line trying to paint AJ in a better light.

[slavko]

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

.240/.340/20 isn't acceptable for a catcher? What world do you live in?

Comparing Flowers to Beckham is ridiculous. Beckham has over 2,000 MLB PA's. He's played consistently for 4 years. Flowers has never had consistent AB's.

Zing. The original post on that one had me howling.

[Domeshot17]

Originally Posted by dickallen15

One thing to keep in mind about Flowers is he is not 23 or 24 years old. I think he is slightly older than Gordon Beckham, so everyone who thinks Beckham can't get better, shouldn't be thinking Flowers is going to suddenly improve offensively. Defensively, if he becomes the regular, it will be interesting to see how he holds up playing more often. He could be fine, the increased workload could work against him.

The thing that really concerns me offensively besides his lack of contact, is he has been very slow with adjustments. They find your weaknesses fast at this level, and he is going to have to fix that.

It is very different than Gordon. Gordon has been a failed starter for about 80% of his mlb career. Tyler Flowers has been stuck behind AJ for years and has never been the starter.

I think Flowers will be fine as a starter as well. Catcher is one of the most defense first positions in baseball. I see no reason Flowers can't atleast be as good offensively as Gordon, low to mid 700 OPS, with solid D.

[Nellie_Fox]

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

Most of our pitchers haven't been any different than other teams as far as holding runners. That's a Hawk line trying to paint AJ in a better light.

Then it's also a Tom Kelly line, because when he was doing the analysis on the Twins' games against the Sox, he said the Sox pitchers were notorious for being slow to the plate and the Twins always plan to run on them. He gave the time they use, from the time the pitcher breaks his set position until the ball arrives at the catcher, to decide whether they should be running or not. I got out my stopwatch after he said that, and found that the Sox pitchers were almost always slower than the time he said (I don't remember what the time is now.)

[SI1020]

Me thinks someone is greatly overvaluing the potential and ability of Tyler Flowers. If I'm wrong about Flowers then great, because AJ or not the Sox badly need up and coming talent at that position.

[JB98]

Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo

There's more to defense than throwing out base runners.

I want the player who handles the ball more than any other player on the field (besides the pitcher) to be a damn good fielder.

Passed balls lead to unearned runs and put undue stress on pitchers, leading to earlier exits and more bullpen innings.

I want great defense behind the plate.

Fair enough, but I don't think Flowers is great behind the plate. And I don't think he can hit. He has holes in his swing like swiss cheese. Yeah, he'll run into a few and knock 'em out of the yard, but his strikeouts might approach Dunn territory if he plays every day.

[TaylorStSox]

Originally Posted by SI1020

Me thinks someone is greatly overvaluing the potential and ability of Tyler Flowers. If I'm wrong about Flowers then great, because AJ or not the Sox badly need up and coming talent at that position.

Perhaps I'm too optimistic about Flowers. Me thinks Sox fans grossly overvalue AJ even more.

[russ99]

Mark Gonzalez has a report in the Trib that the Sox are talking with Cincinnati about DeAza and Seattle about Viciedo.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...,3815808.story

Nice smarmy quote from Boras about Dayan's future earnings...

Interesting. If either of these goes through, we'd better get quality assets back.

[Madvora]

Originally Posted by russ99

Mark Gonzalez has a report in the Trib that the Sox are talking with Cincinnati about DeAza and Seattle about Viciedo.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...,3815808.story

Nice smarmy quote from Boras about Dayan's future earnings...

Interesting. If either of these goes through, we'd better get quality assets back.

De Aza is one of the guys I was hoping to watch for a few years. It seems like it's been a while since we've had an exciting new player. Beckham actually started out that way.

[russ99]

Originally Posted by Madvora

De Aza is one of the guys I was hoping to watch for a few years. It seems like it's been a while since we've had an exciting new player. Beckham actually started out that way.

Right? Doesn't make much sense unless he's looking for a ridiculous number out of arb.

He did run down the second half, but so did a lot of Sox players, which IMO was at least partially due to Robin either not having or not utilizing his bench.

[TaylorStSox]

Originally Posted by Madvora

De Aza is one of the guys I was hoping to watch for a few years. It seems like it's been a while since we've had an exciting new player. Beckham actually started out that way.

He's not young, is somewhat injury prone and is more suited for LF. I do like him, but I wouldn't consider him a building block.