White Sox Interactive Forums
Sox Clubhouse
 Soxogram: 
Alright, time to see what all these changes will bring... GO SOX!

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > Sox Clubhouse
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #46  
Old 12-06-2012, 12:00 AM
Nellie_Fox's Avatar
Nellie_Fox Nellie_Fox is offline
Official Professor
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: North Mankato, MN
Posts: 16,285
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
I see Flowers putting up something like .240/.340 with 20 homers next year. I don't see AJ having that type of obp and power. Although that porch in the Bronx might make it happen. When you factor in the defense and the contract, it's a no-brainer IMO. So, yeah AJ might have a similar offensive year, but won't be nearly as good defensively. Obviously, I weigh defense heavily when I look at a catcher.
Wow, you're looking at a totally different guy than I am.
__________________

"Nellie Fox, that little son of a gun, was always on base and was a great hit-and-run man. He sprayed hits all over."
Yogi Berra in the New York Sunday News (July 12, 1970)
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 12-06-2012, 05:40 AM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,865
Default

One thing to keep in mind about Flowers is he is not 23 or 24 years old. I think he is slightly older than Gordon Beckham, so everyone who thinks Beckham can't get better, shouldn't be thinking Flowers is going to suddenly improve offensively. Defensively, if he becomes the regular, it will be interesting to see how he holds up playing more often. He could be fine, the increased workload could work against him.

The thing that really concerns me offensively besides his lack of contact, is he has been very slow with adjustments. They find your weaknesses fast at this level, and he is going to have to fix that.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 12-06-2012, 07:27 AM
russ99 russ99 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 11,348
Blog Entries: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
He's also 37 years old and had an eyebrow raising power spike in a contract year. He had a great offensive year for a catcher, but was really bad behind the plate.

I see Flowers putting up something like .240/.340 with 20 homers next year. I don't see AJ having that type of obp and power. Although that porch in the Bronx might make it happen. When you factor in the defense and the contract, it's a no-brainer IMO. So, yeah AJ might have a similar offensive year, but won't be nearly as good defensively. Obviously, I weigh defense heavily when I look at a catcher.
There's more to hitting than power. .240/20 isn't acceptable as a major league regular unless you can hide him in the 9 spot, and you can't hide 2-3 guys in the 9 spot.

Comes down to if you prefer a Karkovice or a Kendall at catcher.

I vastly prefer offense from a catcher over defense as long as he can work with the pitchers. As far as CS is concerned, that's not just on the catcher, our pitchers are notorious for not holding runners to the bag, especially since Buehrle left, plus even the best guys average 40-48% CS.

If A.J. isn't coming back, sounds like the Sox may go after a less expensive experienced guy to platoon, which would be a worse stopgap for a year than A.J., but I guess it would be adequate.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 12-06-2012, 07:46 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 18,201
Blog Entries: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
I vastly prefer offense from a catcher over defense as long as he can work with the pitchers. As far as CS is concerned, that's not just on the catcher, our pitchers are notorious for not holding runners to the bag, especially since Buehrle left, plus even the best guys average 40-48% CS.
There's more to defense than throwing out base runners.

I want the player who handles the ball more than any other player on the field (besides the pitcher) to be a damn good fielder.

Passed balls lead to unearned runs and put undue stress on pitchers, leading to earlier exits and more bullpen innings.

I want great defense behind the plate.
__________________
The universe is the practical joke of the General at the expense of the Particular, quoth Frater Perdurabo, and laughed. The disciples nearest him wept, seeing the Universal Sorrow. Others laughed, seeing the Universal Joke. Others wept. Others laughed. Others wept because they couldn't see the Joke, and others laughed lest they should be thought not to see the Joke. But though FRATER laughed openly, he wept secretly; and really he neither laughed nor wept. Nor did he mean what he said.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 12-06-2012, 09:19 AM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Washington & Talman
Posts: 4,121
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
There's more to hitting than power. .240/20 isn't acceptable as a major league regular unless you can hide him in the 9 spot, and you can't hide 2-3 guys in the 9 spot.

Comes down to if you prefer a Karkovice or a Kendall at catcher.

I vastly prefer offense from a catcher over defense as long as he can work with the pitchers. As far as CS is concerned, that's not just on the catcher, our pitchers are notorious for not holding runners to the bag, especially since Buehrle left, plus even the best guys average 40-48% CS.

If A.J. isn't coming back, sounds like the Sox may go after a less expensive experienced guy to platoon, which would be a worse stopgap for a year than A.J., but I guess it would be adequate.
.240/.340/20 isn't acceptable for a catcher? What world do you live in?

Comparing Flowers to Beckham is ridiculous. Beckham has over 2,000 MLB PA's. He's played consistently for 4 years. Flowers has never had consistent AB's.

Throwing out runners is a small part of what a catcher does. I want an athletic catcher that moves well behind the plate and blocks pitches. Watch the way AJ calls pitches. He very rarely calls for out pitches or balls in the dirt because he can't get down and block them anymore. IMO, AJ's pitch calling leaves a lot to be desired. The pitcher's seem to like working with Flowers, so I don't think that's going to be a problem.

Most of our pitchers haven't been any different than other teams as far as holding runners. That's a Hawk line trying to paint AJ in a better light.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoota
I'm not counting this homerun or his 3 RBI from today's game because of the game situation. I'm not counting his pinch hit solo homerun in a blowout win in Colorado. In my book, Crede has 2 less home runs than his statistics show, 4 less RBI, and one less walk (the one where he pinch hit for Uribe after coming in with a 3-0 count and taking one pitch).
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 12-06-2012, 10:07 AM
slavko slavko is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: North Suburban
Posts: 5,100
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
.240/.340/20 isn't acceptable for a catcher? What world do you live in?

Comparing Flowers to Beckham is ridiculous. Beckham has over 2,000 MLB PA's. He's played consistently for 4 years. Flowers has never had consistent AB's.
Zing. The original post on that one had me howling.
__________________
Ya Ta Hey, Black Crow.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 12-06-2012, 10:09 AM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Minooka
Posts: 8,901
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
One thing to keep in mind about Flowers is he is not 23 or 24 years old. I think he is slightly older than Gordon Beckham, so everyone who thinks Beckham can't get better, shouldn't be thinking Flowers is going to suddenly improve offensively. Defensively, if he becomes the regular, it will be interesting to see how he holds up playing more often. He could be fine, the increased workload could work against him.

The thing that really concerns me offensively besides his lack of contact, is he has been very slow with adjustments. They find your weaknesses fast at this level, and he is going to have to fix that.
It is very different than Gordon. Gordon has been a failed starter for about 80% of his mlb career. Tyler Flowers has been stuck behind AJ for years and has never been the starter.

I think Flowers will be fine as a starter as well. Catcher is one of the most defense first positions in baseball. I see no reason Flowers can't atleast be as good offensively as Gordon, low to mid 700 OPS, with solid D.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 12-06-2012, 11:10 AM
Nellie_Fox's Avatar
Nellie_Fox Nellie_Fox is offline
Official Professor
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: North Mankato, MN
Posts: 16,285
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
Most of our pitchers haven't been any different than other teams as far as holding runners. That's a Hawk line trying to paint AJ in a better light.
Then it's also a Tom Kelly line, because when he was doing the analysis on the Twins' games against the Sox, he said the Sox pitchers were notorious for being slow to the plate and the Twins always plan to run on them. He gave the time they use, from the time the pitcher breaks his set position until the ball arrives at the catcher, to decide whether they should be running or not. I got out my stopwatch after he said that, and found that the Sox pitchers were almost always slower than the time he said (I don't remember what the time is now.)
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 12-06-2012, 11:23 AM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Deep in the heart of Dixie
Posts: 4,238
Default

Me thinks someone is greatly overvaluing the potential and ability of Tyler Flowers. If I'm wrong about Flowers then great, because AJ or not the Sox badly need up and coming talent at that position.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 12-06-2012, 12:30 PM
JB98's Avatar
JB98 JB98 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Crystal Lake, IL
Posts: 27,013
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
There's more to defense than throwing out base runners.

I want the player who handles the ball more than any other player on the field (besides the pitcher) to be a damn good fielder.

Passed balls lead to unearned runs and put undue stress on pitchers, leading to earlier exits and more bullpen innings.

I want great defense behind the plate.
Fair enough, but I don't think Flowers is great behind the plate. And I don't think he can hit. He has holes in his swing like swiss cheese. Yeah, he'll run into a few and knock 'em out of the yard, but his strikeouts might approach Dunn territory if he plays every day.
__________________
JB's attendance record:
2004: 14-5; 2005: 16-8; 2006: 19-10; 2007: 8-12; 2008: 15-7; 2009: 6-13; 2010: 12-11; 2011: 9-8; 2012: 11-7; 2013: 8-9; 2014: 2-1; Total: 120-91.
Next game: April 26 vs. Tampa Bay

R
ead my new baseball blog: http://thebaseballkid98.blogspot.com/

Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 12-06-2012, 12:43 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Washington & Talman
Posts: 4,121
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
Me thinks someone is greatly overvaluing the potential and ability of Tyler Flowers. If I'm wrong about Flowers then great, because AJ or not the Sox badly need up and coming talent at that position.
Perhaps I'm too optimistic about Flowers. Me thinks Sox fans grossly overvalue AJ even more.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 12-07-2012, 02:01 PM
russ99 russ99 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 11,348
Blog Entries: 1
Default

Mark Gonzalez has a report in the Trib that the Sox are talking with Cincinnati about DeAza and Seattle about Viciedo.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...,3815808.story

Nice smarmy quote from Boras about Dayan's future earnings...

Interesting. If either of these goes through, we'd better get quality assets back.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 12-07-2012, 02:10 PM
Madvora Madvora is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,748
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
Mark Gonzalez has a report in the Trib that the Sox are talking with Cincinnati about DeAza and Seattle about Viciedo.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...,3815808.story

Nice smarmy quote from Boras about Dayan's future earnings...

Interesting. If either of these goes through, we'd better get quality assets back.
De Aza is one of the guys I was hoping to watch for a few years. It seems like it's been a while since we've had an exciting new player. Beckham actually started out that way.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 12-07-2012, 02:34 PM
russ99 russ99 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 11,348
Blog Entries: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madvora View Post
De Aza is one of the guys I was hoping to watch for a few years. It seems like it's been a while since we've had an exciting new player. Beckham actually started out that way.
Right? Doesn't make much sense unless he's looking for a ridiculous number out of arb.

He did run down the second half, but so did a lot of Sox players, which IMO was at least partially due to Robin either not having or not utilizing his bench.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 12-07-2012, 03:23 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Washington & Talman
Posts: 4,121
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madvora View Post
De Aza is one of the guys I was hoping to watch for a few years. It seems like it's been a while since we've had an exciting new player. Beckham actually started out that way.
He's not young, is somewhat injury prone and is more suited for LF. I do like him, but I wouldn't consider him a building block.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:00 AM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.