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  #16  
Old 11-28-2012, 11:21 PM
Zisk77 Zisk77 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKMeibalane View Post
Where's your evidence?
for wahtever its worth: Kraplan on chicago trib. live said he interviewed Piazza in the locker room. Piazza took of his shirt and he had the steroid back acne all over his back...yep I know pretty circumstantial.
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  #17  
Old 11-28-2012, 11:38 PM
thomas35forever thomas35forever is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
I know that there were certainly rumors of Bagwell and Piazza using but I don't think I EVER heard anything about Biggio using.
Agreed. If Biggio was found using, that would be completely out of left field. I would also be very devastated.
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  #18  
Old 11-29-2012, 02:49 AM
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Daver Daver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDog View Post
The Bonds vote will be interesting. I don't expect Sosa to have much support, but there is the school of thought thta Bonds would have been worthy without the home runs.

I wouldn't vote for Bonds or Sosa or McGwire if I had a vote. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I'm of the belief that blatantly cheating to gain an advantage is egregrious enough to nullify the achievements.

What is your definition of cheating?

The Niekro brothers wait patiently for an answer.
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  #19  
Old 11-29-2012, 04:51 AM
ComiskeyBrewer ComiskeyBrewer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKMeibalane View Post
Where's your evidence?
Only one of the three named who sticks out to me is Bagwell.

Bagwell's HR totals from age 23-29(his "peak" years)

15
18
20
39
21
31
43(age 29)

Bagwell's HR totals from age 30 on:

34
42
47
39
31
39
27(age 36)

To me, that's really high for someone in his 30s, who didn't have much power in his 20s. Tradionally, most power hitters have their peak from ages 26-30/31. Bagwell was just the opposite, having his peak years occur basically from age 29-35. That's not natural. Now, the first defense is "well, he had a short porch at Minute Maid Park at the end of his career, that had to help him." Well, if it did, it helped him for away games too, because his splits were almost identical home v away(with the exception of the 2004 season). To me, that's enough proof.

Piazza might have used(i doubt it), but his numbers were highest in his 20s(and consistently high), and started a gradual decline around age 31-32.

I doubt Biggio used, but it is odd that his career high for HRs happened when he was 39, and the only back to back to back 20+ Hr seasons occurred in his age 38/39/40 years. That being said, the guy NEVER hit for more than 26 Hrs, and his OPS had a pretty normal arch as far as his career went. Main point: If Biggio used, he should have gotten his money back.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Daver View Post
What is your definition of cheating?

The Niekro brothers wait patiently for an answer.
Those guys cheated so much they made NASCAR drivers blush.
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  #20  
Old 11-29-2012, 09:13 AM
MeteorsSox4367 MeteorsSox4367 is offline
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All I know is Royce Clayton is on the ballot. Maybe we can generate some support for the man and his candidacy here on WSI.
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  #21  
Old 11-29-2012, 09:39 AM
amsteel amsteel is offline
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Bonds is an ******* and undoubtedly used, but still, look at his 2001-2004 stats:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...tting_standard

ABSURD
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  #22  
Old 11-29-2012, 10:05 AM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
I know that there were certainly rumors of Bagwell and Piazza using but I don't think I EVER heard anything about Biggio using.
Yes. I wanted to post this but you beat me to it.
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  #23  
Old 11-29-2012, 10:08 AM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Originally Posted by amsteel View Post
Bonds is an ******* and undoubtedly used, but still, look at his 2001-2004 stats:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...tting_standard

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Absurd and very tainted.
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  #24  
Old 11-29-2012, 10:14 AM
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Maybe a "moratorium" should be imposed for those players that began their careers around 1986-87-88 ( era of the "Bash Brothers") until such time as a clear picture of those who "used" and those who didn't can come into focus.

Rather than place any of them in the HOF while doubts exist merely list them as having "far above average performances" during that era.

PS. Have you seen the rookie cards of Bonds and/or McGwire?
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  #25  
Old 11-29-2012, 10:29 AM
Bucky F. Dent Bucky F. Dent is offline
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Put 'em all in a special room in the Hall. You acknowledge the accomplishment, but acknowledge the fact that their performance is called into question by allegations of PED use.
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  #26  
Old 11-29-2012, 10:45 AM
Moses_Scurry Moses_Scurry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucky F. Dent View Post
Put 'em all in a special room in the Hall. You acknowledge the accomplishment, but acknowledge the fact that their performance is called into question by allegations of PED use.
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  #27  
Old 11-29-2012, 11:39 AM
Mr. Jinx Mr. Jinx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daver View Post
What is your definition of cheating?

The Niekro brothers wait patiently for an answer.
As do all the players who used amphetamines for years and years.
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  #28  
Old 11-29-2012, 11:41 AM
Mr. Jinx Mr. Jinx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKMeibalane View Post
I don't, but I also don't know that they weren't clean, and I don't advocate punishment just because they played in the same era as Sosa, McGwire, Bonds, etc.
So then are you an advocate of Clemens getting in then? After all, he has never been definitely proven to have used steroids before.
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  #29  
Old 11-29-2012, 01:32 PM
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Special Room. Sounds great. But would it resemble a locker room, laboratory or court room? Seriously what happens to these former players will greatly impact the future of the HOF.
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  #30  
Old 11-29-2012, 02:25 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daver View Post
What is your definition of cheating?

The Niekro brothers wait patiently for an answer.
There is a difference between throwing a spit ball/corking bats and performance en chancing drugs. Gaylord Perry is in the Hall of Fame, essentially for being able to get away with thing, by his account, an account which may or not be exaggeration. Some people would consider it cheating if you took first on a pitch you knew didn't hit you when the umpire said it did. There are different levels of clean cheating as well. A Russian fencer once rigged up a device to show he was scoring touches on the electronic scoring device, but unless baseball umpiring went electronic, that's not the sort of thing you would have to worry about in baseball. Performance-en chancing drugs are on a completely different level.

There is even a difference between stimulants and anabolic steroids, Cheating really isn't the right category for anabolic steroids, although I'm not defending either. If you are competing against people taking illegal stimulants, there are measures you can take including legal stimulants, to perform at the same level. Anabolic steroids establish a sort of arms race. Staying clean while competing in that atmosphere is more difficult for many than competing in an atmosphere of illegal stimulants.

The answer to your question turns out to be vague, not unlike Potter Stewart's definition of pornography. Labeling steroid users simply as cheaters, though, ends up doing a disservice to other cheaters. Use of the word was probably ill-advised.
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