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  #196  
Old 11-26-2012, 06:58 PM
SOXSINCE'70 SOXSINCE'70 is offline
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Originally Posted by Brian26 View Post
Fletcher, Sax, Cora and then Durham.
I stand corrected.But Cora came before Sax,IIRC.
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  #197  
Old 11-26-2012, 09:33 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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Originally Posted by SOXSINCE'70 View Post

I stand corrected.But Cora came before Sax,IIRC.
Cora's (91-94) and Sax's (92-93) time on the Sox overlapped, but Sax really only played 2B during the 92 season.
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  #198  
Old 11-27-2012, 07:58 AM
SOXSINCE'70 SOXSINCE'70 is offline
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Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
Cora's (91-94) and Sax's (92-93) time on the Sox overlapped, but Sax really only played 2B during the 92 season.
I remember Sax playing LF during the '93 season.It was a game against the Brew Crew.As I remember it, Robin won the game with a solo HR in the top of the 9th. Roberto Hernandez got the save in the bottom of the 9th.
  #199  
Old 11-27-2012, 08:54 AM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSoxNation View Post
Viciedo is a good LF/RF

Beckham was actually a better 3B than he was 2B.

If Beckham can play great 3B, Hit .270/15/70 that's fine for me at 3B.

LF- Viciedo
SS- Ramirez
1B- Konerko
DH- Dunn
2B/3B- Beckham
2B/3B- Sanchez
CF- DeAza
I'll take into next year......move rios, get a catcher. Napoli would be nice.
Thats fine, but since we are just making stuff up (because Beckham is not close to a .270 hitter) why not say if Viciedo can just become an average 3b, and hit .270/35/90 thats fine for me too?

Beckham's ONLY value is that he is a solid glove at 2b. By moving him to 3rd, you diminish his value immensely because 3b is not a defensive first position, but one that requires value both defensively and offensively.
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  #200  
Old 11-27-2012, 10:28 AM
CWSpalehoseCWS CWSpalehoseCWS is offline
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With all this talk of moving Beckham to 3B, I swear I remember reading a while back that Beckham said he was scared ****less to play 3B and that he didn't like it. So I doubt the Sox would do that to him again.
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  #201  
Old 11-27-2012, 10:31 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Sox 70:

Sax did play some games in left field, that game at Milwaukee you are talking about came in 1993. He made a spectacular over the shoulder tumbling catch on a ball, started to lose it as he tumbled and caught it between his legs as he hit the ground, immediately holding it up to the umpire to show that he had it.

One of the best catches I ever saw.

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  #202  
Old 11-27-2012, 10:32 AM
SephClone89 SephClone89 is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
Beckham's ONLY value is that he is a solid glove at 2b. By moving him to 3rd, you diminish his value immensely because 3b is not a defensive first position, but one that requires value both defensively and offensively.
Bingo. He also wasn't that good at third.
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  #203  
Old 11-27-2012, 01:14 PM
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Manto looks at leadoff man Alejandro De Aza and Gordon Beckham and sees players whose best seasons are ahead of them.

Beckham
Manto pointed out that Beckham had himself in a good place offensively at the season's finish and expects that same upbeat attitude to carry over into 2013."He'll be a both sides of the ball type of guy," Manto said. "He's going to be real good offensively. Sometimes it takes a little bit of a setback to get better."



DeAza
"He did a tremendous job leading off, but he definitely left himself room to improve," Manto said. "The only thing I see with him is when he learns how to bunt more, it will open up a lot of holes on the infield and he could become elite."


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  #204  
Old 11-27-2012, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by #1swisher View Post
DeAza
"He did a tremendous job leading off, but he definitely left himself room to improve," Manto said. "The only thing I see with him is when he learns how to bunt more, it will open up a lot of holes on the infield and he could become elite."


I'm going to need a "FIRE ROBIN" tag around here pretty soon.
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  #205  
Old 11-27-2012, 02:28 PM
DonnieDarko DonnieDarko is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post


I'm going to need a "FIRE ROBIN" tag around here pretty soon.
I know you don't like bunting, but I honestly do...in the right situations, and if you have the speed to beat out the throw to 1st. Both of which I know De Aza can do and has.
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  #206  
Old 11-27-2012, 02:32 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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Originally Posted by DonnieDarko View Post
I know you don't like bunting, but I honestly do...in the right situations, and if you have the speed to beat out the throw to 1st. Both of which I know De Aza can do and has.
If De Aza can successfully lay down four bunt hits a year it will move the third baseman in more consistently and allow him to hit the ball in the hole in the left side more. I think that the third baseman hardly ever played in on De Aza.
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  #207  
Old 11-27-2012, 02:35 PM
DonnieDarko DonnieDarko is offline
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Originally Posted by WhiteSox5187 View Post
If De Aza can successfully lay down four bunt hits a year it will move the third baseman in more consistently and allow him to hit the ball in the hole in the left side more. I think that the third baseman hardly ever played in on De Aza.
That's what I'm saying. Be more of a bunting threat to bring in the 3B, and then shoot a grounder past him when he comes in.
  #208  
Old 11-27-2012, 02:43 PM
Konerko05 Konerko05 is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post


I'm going to need a "FIRE ROBIN" tag around here pretty soon.
The quote is from Jeff Manto.

He is not talking about purposely creating outs with sacrifice bunts. He is talking about bunting for a basehit, and putting the threat of a bunt in the defense's head to open more holes around the infield. If done correctly, this would actually help raise DeAza's AVG/OBP.
  #209  
Old 11-27-2012, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konerko05 View Post
The quote is from Jeff Manto.

He is not talking about purposely creating outs with sacrifice bunts. He is talking about bunting for a basehit, and putting the threat of a bunt in the defense's head to open more holes around the infield. If done correctly, this would actually help raise DeAza's AVG/OBP.
This idea strike me as one that sounds great on paper but for practical purposes, is not all that great. It's akin to telling a pitcher struggling with his command to "just throw more strikes." Sounds great, right? Except that strikes, for obvious reasons, result in more hits allowed, more homers allowed, more runs allowed. You want quality from your players, not just quantity. The idea that De Aza is just going to start laying down beautiful bunts at age 29, which he will turn about a week into the 2013 season, seems a bit far fetched, not to mention, how many outs are we talking about giving up on non-successful bunt attempts? From the top of the order? Bunting for basehits works great when you have a burner who has absolutely no power to drive the ball (looking at you, Juan Pierre and Scott Podsednik) but effectively removing the bat from a player's hands with a bit of pop, the De Aza has displayed has always struck me as foolish.

Not to mention, I'm not even sure of how much a problem this really is. On ground balls, De Aza hit .268 last season, 30 points above the AL average, whereas on non-LD fly balls he hit .211, 10 points below the AL average. It would seem to me that the problem isn't necessarily in defensive alignment, but simply approach. Add to that, De Aza hit for more power than the AL average to the opposite field.

We'll see, Manto and Ventura are obviously much, much smarter baseball people than I, but ****, I really, really hate bunting.
  #210  
Old 11-27-2012, 05:01 PM
Foulke You Foulke You is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
This idea strike me as one that sounds great on paper but for practical purposes, is not all that great. It's akin to telling a pitcher struggling with his command to "just throw more strikes." Sounds great, right? Except that strikes, for obvious reasons, result in more hits allowed, more homers allowed, more runs allowed. You want quality from your players, not just quantity. The idea that De Aza is just going to start laying down beautiful bunts at age 29, which he will turn about a week into the 2013 season, seems a bit far fetched, not to mention, how many outs are we talking about giving up on non-successful bunt attempts? From the top of the order? Bunting for basehits works great when you have a burner who has absolutely no power to drive the ball (looking at you, Juan Pierre and Scott Podsednik) but effectively removing the bat from a player's hands with a bit of pop, the De Aza has displayed has always struck me as foolish.

Not to mention, I'm not even sure of how much a problem this really is. On ground balls, De Aza hit .268 last season, 30 points above the AL average, whereas on non-LD fly balls he hit .211, 10 points below the AL average. It would seem to me that the problem isn't necessarily in defensive alignment, but simply approach. Add to that, De Aza hit for more power than the AL average to the opposite field.

We'll see, Manto and Ventura are obviously much, much smarter baseball people than I, but ****, I really, really hate bunting.
You have some valid points but I don't mind it as much when you aren't throwing an out away on a sacrifice. When the right situation presents itself, like a slow footed Miguel Cabrera playing extremely deep or someone like Verlander on his 5th straight scoreless innning, it can be a nice option to have in your pocket as a hitter. Many would-be pitching gems have been ruined by a leadoff bunt single. As Manto pointed out, it can also keep those infielders in close at the corners even when De Aza is not laying one down. I look at Kenny Lofton as the perfect example of a leadoff hitter who had some pop in his bat but also effectively used the bunt base hit as a part of his arsenal.

I disagree about a player not being able to learn new tricks at an older age though. Frank Thomas learned how to hit with an open stance in 2000 and had an MVP year largely because of the switch. Scott Podsendik learned the "butcher boy" play in 2009 (when he was 33) which is something he wasn't able to do even in the championship season of 2005. Paul Konerko learned how to hit to right field halfway through his career and became a better hitter, etc. A player isn't necessarily locked in to a particular set of abilities once they reach a certain age.
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Last edited by Foulke You; 11-28-2012 at 02:10 PM.
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