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  #106  
Old 11-13-2012, 09:26 AM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Beckham had a higher batting average with runners in scoring position. He had a higher batting average than Dunn with two outs and runners in scoring position. Late in close games Beckham had a higher batting average than Dunn. It wasn't a good batting average, unless you compare it to Dunn's, whose batting averages in the above situations weren't even close.. Dunn was more vulnerable to late-inning relievers than Beckham was, although that might be weighted against Dunn in that teams were more likely to bring in specialists whose job was to get him out while teams generally did not change pitchers to focus on Beckham.

At the end of the day, Dunn was a black hole offensively. As a third-place hitter, he hurt the White Sox over the course of 2012. If you are relying on his stats to tell you otherwise, you are misinterpreting them. If hitting home runs is pretty much all you do offensively, 41 over six months, doesn't guarantee you are helping your team. No one has ever had a lower batting average while leading the league in walks. In my lifetime, I have never seen a championship team that played most of the year with a No. 3 hitter hitting .204.

And Adam Dunn led the league in unproductive outs.
The best way to win games, unless something changed, is to score more runs than the opposition. Dunn scored far more runs and knocked in far more runs.

Beckham's defense is becoming the stuff of legends. He is a vacuum. He is fantastic at turning the double play. He has a very strong arm for a second baseman. He also has very, very limited range. He isn't even the best defender, relative to position, on the team. Rios and Ramirez are far better defenders. Ramirez is a far better defender at a far more important position. Compound that with Beckham being among the very worst hitting second baseman in baseball, and he has little to no value.

I know you don't like Dunn. I don't really like him either. I'd prefer a more versatile hitter. However, to say one of the worst players in baseball is more important is just ludicrous. By any measure besides power, Gordon Beckham is pretty awful.
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Originally Posted by shoota
I'm not counting this homerun or his 3 RBI from today's game because of the game situation. I'm not counting his pinch hit solo homerun in a blowout win in Colorado. In my book, Crede has 2 less home runs than his statistics show, 4 less RBI, and one less walk (the one where he pinch hit for Uribe after coming in with a 3-0 count and taking one pitch).
  #107  
Old 11-13-2012, 09:53 AM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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I thought Beckham was doing pretty good until they picked up Youkilis. He was hitting in the two spot and he was starting to do pretty good until they put him in the 9 spot.
  #108  
Old 11-13-2012, 10:06 AM
slavko slavko is offline
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Originally Posted by chicagowhitesox1 View Post
I thought Beckham was doing pretty good until they picked up Youkilis. He was hitting in the two spot and he was starting to do pretty good until they put him in the 9 spot.
Gordon has run out of excuses and glimmers of hope at the plate. When does the club get this?
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  #109  
Old 11-13-2012, 11:05 AM
SI1020 SI1020 is online now
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
Ultimately, Dunn is better offensive and defensive DH than Beckham is an offensive and defensive 2b. I like Gordon, I think he is better served in a utility role personally, but he is a BAD hitter and an above average defender. He is a top 10 defensive 2b and a bottom 5 offensive 2b.

Yes, obviously Dunn would be better served hitting 6th since he can't keep his average in the 240's anymore. However, you also can't ignore 40 homers and over 90 RBIs.
Good post. I pretty much agree with the bolded. If either of both of these guys is unloaded hopefully we can get some help in return. If not then may Beckham and Dunn be the best they both can be. To those of you who have lost patience with Beckham I hear you.
  #110  
Old 11-13-2012, 11:14 AM
PalehosePlanet PalehosePlanet is offline
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Originally Posted by slavko View Post
Gordon has run out of excuses and glimmers of hope at the plate. When does the club get this?
I think the club already gets it; that's why he was buried in the 9 hole for most of the last two years. The fact is the organization lacks anyone better for the time being. That's the only reason we keep playing him -- that, and he's cheap.
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  #111  
Old 11-13-2012, 12:07 PM
#1swisher #1swisher is offline
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Jon Morosi
Mariners, Marlins, Dodgers, Phillies interested in Kevin Youkilis.
My story at http://FOXSports.com : http://bit.ly/Ulhlgo @MLBONFOX


Indians Update
Indians, Phillis, Dodgers eyeing Youkilis


http://sns.mx/rXmzy2
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  #112  
Old 11-13-2012, 01:09 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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Originally Posted by Foulke You View Post
Take a look at the contracts being handed out around baseball for guys who produce less than Dunn. 36 year old DH David Ortiz (who is injury prone and cannot play the field at all) just got a 2 year contract extension worth $26 million.
You mean the same David Ortiz who hit over .300 the last two years with OPS's of .953 and 1.024? Great comparison. The only thing he produced less of than Dunn the last two years was boos, groans, clinched chests and cool breezes.
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  #113  
Old 11-13-2012, 02:05 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
The best way to win games, unless something changed, is to score more runs than the opposition. Dunn scored far more runs and knocked in far more runs.

Beckham's defense is becoming the stuff of legends. He is a vacuum. He is fantastic at turning the double play. He has a very strong arm for a second baseman. He also has very, very limited range. He isn't even the best defender, relative to position, on the team. Rios and Ramirez are far better defenders. Ramirez is a far better defender at a far more important position. Compound that with Beckham being among the very worst hitting second baseman in baseball, and he has little to no value.

I know you don't like Dunn. I don't really like him either. I'd prefer a more versatile hitter. However, to say one of the worst players in baseball is more important is just ludicrous. By any measure besides power, Gordon Beckham is pretty awful.
I am happy with a strong-defensive, light-hitting middle infielder. Teams can win, have won with strong defefensive, light-hitting middle-infielders. You have to have great pitching to win, and being strong up the middle makes your pitching better. If you benched Beckham last year for lack of hitting, you would have diminished the defense and the pitching would suffer. You may be able to replace him over the off-season with a better bat, but you would have to do it in a way that doesn't diminish the defense, which in turn would diminish the pitching.

Replacing Adam Dunn wouldn't be as difficult. It wouldn't be a matter of finding someone to hit as many home runs. With the opportunities Dunn had to drive in runs last season, he would have produced more runs by hitting fewer home runs for a substantially higher average, that is to say, substantially higher than Beckham, who had a substantially higher average than Dunn.

I'm not arguing that Beckham should DH. I am arguing that he does his job better than Dunn does his. You don't need hit .204 and strike out 222 times to hit more than 40 home runs. You don't need to hit home runs to drive in runs when you come up with runners in scoring position more than anyone on your team (note that Dunn got six fewer hits with runners in scoring position than Beckham in more than 20 more plate appearances). You don't need to hit home runs to win games or even championships. The team that hit the fewest number of home runs in baseball during the regular season swept the World Series.

You can put together stats to show that Dunn wasn't a huge problem on offense last year. If you watched the games, you know differently.
  #114  
Old 11-13-2012, 05:19 PM
palehozenychicty palehozenychicty is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post

I am happy with a strong-defensive, light-hitting middle infielder. Teams can win, have won with strong defefensive, light-hitting middle-infielders. You have to have great pitching to win, and being strong up the middle makes your pitching better. If you benched Beckham last year for lack of hitting, you would have diminished the defense and the pitching would suffer. You may be able to replace him over the off-season with a better bat, but you would have to do it in a way that doesn't diminish the defense, which in turn would diminish the pitching.

Replacing Adam Dunn wouldn't be as difficult. It wouldn't be a matter of finding someone to hit as many home runs. With the opportunities Dunn had to drive in runs last season, he would have produced more runs by hitting fewer home runs for a substantially higher average, that is to say, substantially higher than Beckham, who had a substantially higher average than Dunn.

I'm not arguing that Beckham should DH. I am arguing that he does his job better than Dunn does his. You don't need hit .204 and strike out 222 times to hit more than 40 home runs. You don't need to hit home runs to drive in runs when you come up with runners in scoring position more than anyone on your team (note that Dunn got six fewer hits with runners in scoring position than Beckham in more than 20 more plate appearances). You don't need to hit home runs to win games or even championships. The team that hit the fewest number of home runs in baseball during the regular season swept the World Series.

You can put together stats to show that Dunn wasn't a huge problem on offense last year. If you watched the games, you know differently.
I think we all understand that his stats have flawed angles. We also understand that his ability to make consistent contact and in key situations is subpar.

My question is this: Who do you think is out there that we know is available that can put up those numbers and hit better in those situations?

This is with the little knowledge we have about free agents, waiver wires, etc.
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  #115  
Old 11-13-2012, 06:29 PM
mahagga73 mahagga73 is offline
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Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
Does Beckham have much value at this point?
Seriously? Look at the second baseman around the league, it's pathetic. Beckham is great defensively and well above average offensively for a second baseman despite moans to the contrary. I don't see how trading him and Vicedo improves this team at all.

Last edited by mahagga73; 11-13-2012 at 06:40 PM.
  #116  
Old 11-13-2012, 06:33 PM
mahagga73 mahagga73 is offline
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Originally Posted by PalehosePlanet View Post
I think the club already gets it; that's why he was buried in the 9 hole for most of the last two years. The fact is the organization lacks anyone better for the time being. That's the only reason we keep playing him -- that, and he's cheap.
Once again, I will have to tell you compared to second baseman around the league he is better than average . Plays great D and is a better RBI man than most around both leagues. Not sure who or what you guys think they are going to get to match that. There is constant complaining about his offense but he did have 70 RBI's or so and that is well above the average in the league for his position. You seem to expect way too much production out of this position or you are still stuck in the 90's where there were quite a few good ones around.
  #117  
Old 11-13-2012, 06:35 PM
mahagga73 mahagga73 is offline
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Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
Good post. I pretty much agree with the bolded. If either of both of these guys is unloaded hopefully we can get some help in return. If not then may Beckham and Dunn be the best they both can be. To those of you who have lost patience with Beckham I hear you.
Uh no, he is above average defensively and offensively compared to the other second baseman around. FALSE. Check it out.
  #118  
Old 11-13-2012, 06:54 PM
SCCWS SCCWS is offline
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Originally Posted by mahagga73 View Post
Uh no, he is above average defensively and offensively compared to the other second baseman around. FALSE. Check it out.
Offensively, he is not based on stats. Of all ML 2nd baseman--qualified abs. Gordon ranks about 15 out of 21. However in OBP he ranks 20 lowest. He also is at the bottom in stolen bases. Only his 16 HR's ranks him in top 10.
  #119  
Old 11-13-2012, 07:05 PM
mahagga73 mahagga73 is offline
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Originally Posted by SCCWS View Post
Offensively, he is not based on stats. Of all ML 2nd baseman--qualified abs. Gordon ranks about 15 out of 21. However in OBP he ranks 20 lowest. He also is at the bottom in stolen bases. Only his 16 HR's ranks him in top 10.
Half the teams in the AL were platooning this season. Who cares about steals? Above average in HR's and RBI's. WAY WAY above average on defense. I doubt they can equal his production through a trade . I like the chemistry with Ramirez, not in favor of a trade of Beckham or Dayan .
  #120  
Old 11-13-2012, 07:31 PM
shingo10 shingo10 is offline
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Come on Hahn. Make your mark on this offseason. I'm getting ancy with all these teams pulling off deals and us just standing pat. Shake it up!
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