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  #91  
Old 11-12-2012, 04:28 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
Ummm, no. Beckham's a plus defender, but not great. There's a reason he's a second baseman. He was among the worst 3 hitting second baseman in baseball. There's no way he was more valuable than the guy who hit 40 home runs and led the league in walks.
Unless your goal is to win games. Look at the games that were decided by Beckham's successes and failures on both offense and defense and look at where Dunn's successes and failures on both offense and defense. Beckham was far from being the team's MVP, but he contributed more to the team's success than Dunn did.
  #92  
Old 11-12-2012, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
There was an article somewhere last week that the Sox were thinking about moving the Tank back to 3B.
Someone please tell me that this is a typo.
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  #93  
Old 11-12-2012, 04:53 PM
Wedema Wedema is online now
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Originally Posted by Daver View Post
Someone please tell me that this is a typo.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...ional-meetings
  #94  
Old 11-12-2012, 05:35 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
Nope. You can stomach piss poor offense up the middle if the defense is good, but 3b is an offensive position. Gordon doesn't have the bat to play 2b let alone 3b. He could possibly be the worst offensive 3b in baseball.
No difference. Having an average hitting 3B and Beckham at 2B or an equivalent hitting 2B and beckham at 3rd, is the same result.
Yes, there usually are MORE good hitting 3B than 2B at least in the power sense, but power may not be what the Sox really need. And the fact is that Sox 2B have generally hit better than the 3B anyway....good hitting 3B are harder to find these days.

Someone mentioned Lowrie. He could be had, but he's got incessant injury issues.
  #95  
Old 11-12-2012, 06:06 PM
chicagowhitesox1 chicagowhitesox1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
No difference. Having an average hitting 3B and Beckham at 2B or an equivalent hitting 2B and beckham at 3rd, is the same result.
Yes, there usually are MORE good hitting 3B than 2B at least in the power sense, but power may not be what the Sox really need. And the fact is that Sox 2B have generally hit better than the 3B anyway....good hitting 3B are harder to find these days.

Someone mentioned Lowrie. He could be had, but he's got incessant injury issues.
Do you mean Brett Lawrie? I would think he would be tough to get. He would be a good pickup though.
  #96  
Old 11-12-2012, 06:10 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Someone please tell me that this is a typo.
I was going to post the article but got sidetracked with a phone call but Wedema posted the article . For what it's worth I think it's a bad idea.
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  #97  
Old 11-12-2012, 06:31 PM
DSpivack DSpivack is offline
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Do you mean Brett Lawrie? I would think he would be tough to get. He would be a good pickup though.
Jed Lowrie of the Astros, who played SS last year, not the Blue Jays' 3B Brett Lawrie.
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  #98  
Old 11-12-2012, 07:02 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post
Unless your goal is to win games. Look at the games that were decided by Beckham's successes and failures on both offense and defense and look at where Dunn's successes and failures on both offense and defense. Beckham was far from being the team's MVP, but he contributed more to the team's success than Dunn did.
This is just anecdotal drivel. I challenge you to find 1 stat that says Beckham is a more valuable player than Dunn.

I find Beckham more frustrating than Dunn. If you're going to be a really bad hitter, you better do the little things ie. moving runners over, be a good base runner. Beckham does neither of these. He's a plus 2nd baseman. That's great. Plus second baseman are called failed short stops.

I'm not a big fan of Dunn, but there's absolutely no way he brings less value than a guy who probably shouldn't even be an every day player. At the end of the day, 41 home runs and 105 walks don't lie.
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I'm not counting this homerun or his 3 RBI from today's game because of the game situation. I'm not counting his pinch hit solo homerun in a blowout win in Colorado. In my book, Crede has 2 less home runs than his statistics show, 4 less RBI, and one less walk (the one where he pinch hit for Uribe after coming in with a 3-0 count and taking one pitch).
  #99  
Old 11-12-2012, 08:31 PM
SCCWS SCCWS is offline
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Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
Jed Lowrie of the Astros, who played SS last year, not the Blue Jays' 3B Brett Lawrie.
Red Sox dumped him because he was always injured. Lot of shoulder problems. Good hitter when he plays but a very average fielder.
  #100  
Old 11-12-2012, 09:21 PM
palehozenychicty palehozenychicty is offline
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post

This is just anecdotal drivel. I challenge you to find 1 stat that says Beckham is a more valuable player than Dunn.

I find Beckham more frustrating than Dunn. If you're going to be a really bad hitter, you better do the little things ie. moving runners over, be a good base runner. Beckham does neither of these. He's a plus 2nd baseman. That's great. Plus second baseman are called failed short stops.

I'm not a big fan of Dunn, but there's absolutely no way he brings less value than a guy who probably shouldn't even be an every day player. At the end of the day, 41 home runs and 105 walks don't lie.
You can't rationalize Dunn with TDog. According to him, he's keeping this team from a dynasty.
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  #101  
Old 11-12-2012, 09:26 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by TaylorStSox View Post
This is just anecdotal drivel. I challenge you to find 1 stat that says Beckham is a more valuable player than Dunn.

I find Beckham more frustrating than Dunn. If you're going to be a really bad hitter, you better do the little things ie. moving runners over, be a good base runner. Beckham does neither of these. He's a plus 2nd baseman. That's great. Plus second baseman are called failed short stops.

I'm not a big fan of Dunn, but there's absolutely no way he brings less value than a guy who probably shouldn't even be an every day player. At the end of the day, 41 home runs and 105 walks don't lie.
Beckham had a higher batting average with runners in scoring position. He had a higher batting average than Dunn with two outs and runners in scoring position. Late in close games Beckham had a higher batting average than Dunn. It wasn't a good batting average, unless you compare it to Dunn's, whose batting averages in the above situations weren't even close.. Dunn was more vulnerable to late-inning relievers than Beckham was, although that might be weighted against Dunn in that teams were more likely to bring in specialists whose job was to get him out while teams generally did not change pitchers to focus on Beckham.

At the end of the day, Dunn was a black hole offensively. As a third-place hitter, he hurt the White Sox over the course of 2012. If you are relying on his stats to tell you otherwise, you are misinterpreting them. If hitting home runs is pretty much all you do offensively, 41 over six months, doesn't guarantee you are helping your team. No one has ever had a lower batting average while leading the league in walks. In my lifetime, I have never seen a championship team that played most of the year with a No. 3 hitter hitting .204.

And Adam Dunn led the league in unproductive outs.
  #102  
Old 11-12-2012, 09:30 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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This idea Gordon wins more games with his glove than Dunn with the bat is pure comedy:

Last year, Beckham's UZR was negative, he was worse than Dan Uggla, and well below his career 3.0 average.

His WAR (which factors in defense) was 0.6
Adam Dunn's war (which is brought DOWN by his defense) is 1.8

There is not 1 stat, SABR or not, that backs that up.
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  #103  
Old 11-12-2012, 10:51 PM
palehozenychicty palehozenychicty is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
This idea Gordon wins more games with his glove than Dunn with the bat is pure comedy:

Last year, Beckham's UZR was negative, he was worse than Dan Uggla, and well below his career 3.0 average.

His WAR (which factors in defense) was 0.6
Adam Dunn's war (which is brought DOWN by his defense) is 1.8

There is not 1 stat, SABR or not, that backs that up.
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  #104  
Old 11-13-2012, 08:59 AM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
This idea Gordon wins more games with his glove than Dunn with the bat is pure comedy:

Last year, Beckham's UZR was negative, he was worse than Dan Uggla, and well below his career 3.0 average.

His WAR (which factors in defense) was 0.6
Adam Dunn's war (which is brought DOWN by his defense) is 1.8

There is not 1 stat, SABR or not, that backs that up.
In recent months I tried several times and completely failed to start a dialogue on a massive recalculation of WAR by baseball-reference this past spring. It reminded of me of how certain regimes would rewrite history years after the fact. Defensive WAR in particular no longer has any meaning for me. I note on the baseball-reference 2012 White Sox page Adam Dunn has a 1.5 OWAR and a -1.7 DWAR. So maybe in the crazy new methods that comes out to a +1.8. As for TDog I think there are few if any posters here who hang in there and take it the way he does. Regarding Dunn, he is right on as far as I'm concerned.
  #105  
Old 11-13-2012, 09:26 AM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
In recent months I tried several times and completely failed to start a dialogue on a massive recalculation of WAR by baseball-reference this past spring. It reminded of me of how certain regimes would rewrite history years after the fact. Defensive WAR in particular no longer has any meaning for me. I note on the baseball-reference 2012 White Sox page Adam Dunn has a 1.5 OWAR and a -1.7 DWAR. So maybe in the crazy new methods that comes out to a +1.8. As for TDog I think there are few if any posters here who hang in there and take it the way he does. Regarding Dunn, he is right on as far as I'm concerned.
Ultimately, Dunn is better offensive and defensive DH than Beckham is an offensive and defensive 2b. I like Gordon, I think he is better served in a utility role personally, but he is a BAD hitter and an above average defender. He is a top 10 defensive 2b and a bottom 5 offensive 2b.

Yes, obviously Dunn would be better served hitting 6th since he can't keep his average in the 240's anymore. However, you also can't ignore 40 homers and over 90 RBIs.
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