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  #76  
Old 11-12-2012, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
Ventura had ten good years, maybe we should give him a crack.
Oh, yeah, you're right, you really got me there! Hey, maybe we should dig up Babe Ruth's fat ass and plug him in as DH, he had a couple of good years, RIGHT?



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Originally Posted by DSpivack View Post
Why would a rebuilding team take on a 2-year, $30 million contract of a 32-year old DH on the decline? They dealt Carlos Lee to the Marlins last season for a reason. Brett Wallace can put up better numbers than Dunn, at basically the minimum.
I'm sure if the Sox dump Dunn they're going to have to salt and pepper some of his contract, I would think the idea of removing Dunn is less to try and find some payroll flexibility and more to try and refocus the offense because it's apparently taken people only 1 year to forget about all this "smallball" bull**** crap again, but, eh, whatever. Houston is an interesting partner but I don't know what at all we'd want back from them. Their farm system is widely considered to be about as bad as the Sox's, right?

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Originally Posted by gosox41 View Post
Then I think they may be overrating Sanchez.
Maybe, but how much worse can Sanchez really be?
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  #77  
Old 11-12-2012, 09:52 AM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Oh, yeah, you're right, you really got me there! Hey, maybe we should dig up Babe Ruth's fat ass and plug him in as DH, he had a couple of good years, RIGHT?




I'm sure if the Sox dump Dunn they're going to have to salt and pepper some of his contract, I would think the idea of removing Dunn is less to try and find some payroll flexibility and more to try and refocus the offense because it's apparently taken people only 1 year to forget about all this "smallball" bull**** crap again, but, eh, whatever. Houston is an interesting partner but I don't know what at all we'd want back from them. Their farm system is widely considered to be about as bad as the Sox's, right?

Maybe, but how much worse can Sanchez really be?
The Astros farm system is in the top 10 after the last 2 drafts and the trades made this offseason.

Yet, they wouldn't touch Dunn with a 10 foot pole. They're looking to bring Berkman in at far less than his last contract to DH and maybe a few bargain basement FA outfielders and pitchers.. Ken Rosenthal has an article that the Astros will have the lowest payroll in the majors next year.

Maybe something could be done to deal Floyd to the Astros for Jed Lowrie to play 3B. They surely wouldn't take on Dunn's salary in return for some the prospects they've been stockpiling the last few years.

Also, nobody is advocating "small ball", but it's very obvious we need a different dynamic on offense. Cut out a few of the low average, high strikeout, poor situational hitters and bring in a few good contact hitters.

Which is why selling high on Viciedo is a more likely option than anyone making us a good offer on the likes of Dunn.
  #78  
Old 11-12-2012, 11:31 AM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
The Astros farm system is in the top 10 after the last 2 drafts and the trades made this offseason.

Yet, they wouldn't touch Dunn with a 10 foot pole. They're looking to bring Berkman in at far less than his last contract to DH and maybe a few bargain basement FA outfielders and pitchers.. Ken Rosenthal has an article that the Astros will have the lowest payroll in the majors next year.

Maybe something could be done to deal Floyd to the Astros for Jed Lowrie to play 3B. They surely wouldn't take on Dunn's salary in return for some the prospects they've been stockpiling the last few years.

Also, nobody is advocating "small ball", but it's very obvious we need a different dynamic on offense. Cut out a few of the low average, high strikeout, poor situational hitters and bring in a few good contact hitters.

Which is why selling high on Viciedo is a more likely option than anyone making us a good offer on the likes of Dunn.
The low average high strike out guys you cutout should not come from the middle of the order. Most winning teams have a 3-4-5 that has power and can drive in runs, and speed is not much of a factor.

If we are going to cut low average players, it needs to start with Youk and Gordon.
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  #79  
Old 11-12-2012, 11:34 AM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by Tragg View Post
Another thing to remember about 3B is that Beckham can play 3rd. If there is a capable 2B out there, we could take him and just move Beckham over and solve the problem (with the offensive hole shifted from 2b to 3B).
Nope. You can stomach piss poor offense up the middle if the defense is good, but 3b is an offensive position. Gordon doesn't have the bat to play 2b let alone 3b. He could possibly be the worst offensive 3b in baseball.
  #80  
Old 11-12-2012, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by gosox41 View Post
Then I think they may be overrating Sanchez.


Bob
Maybe, but I don't know anything about the kid other than the statistics I've seen and some of the articles I've read.

I honestly don't have the first damn clue how close Sanchez is to the big leagues.
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  #81  
Old 11-12-2012, 01:36 PM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post

The low average high strike out guys you cutout should not come from the middle of the order. Most winning teams have a 3-4-5 that has power and can drive in runs, and speed is not much of a factor.

If we are going to cut low average players, it needs to start with Youk and Gordon.
I don't deny that we need a solid 3-4-5. And we do, when all three guys are clicking, Dunn, Konerko, Rios are at least above average.

But is it wrong to expect the rest of the lineup to handle a bat, work the count, find the best pitch to hit and do something with it instead of gettung behind in most counts, hacking at bad pitches and trying to pull it out of the park?

If we can find a taker on Beckham, a guy like Jeff Keppinger at 2B wouldn't be much of a step down on defense, and would put a much needed patient contact hitter in the lineup at a less that premium price.

As for Viciedo, you have to ask if you can see him taking over for Paul or Rios in the heart of the order the next few years, and if you're comfortable paying him top dollar as Boras needs only to point at his HR totals to get him the largest possible amount in arb or as a FA
  #82  
Old 11-12-2012, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
As for Viciedo, you have to ask if you can see him taking over for Paul or Rios in the heart of the order the next few years, and if you're comfortable paying him top dollar as Boras needs only to point at his HR totals to get him the largest possible amount in arb or as a FA
You are really rushing the clock on Viciedo, he doesn't even hit arbitration for 2 more seasons.
  #83  
Old 11-12-2012, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
The low average high strike out guys you cutout should not come from the middle of the order. Most winning teams have a 3-4-5 that has power and can drive in runs, and speed is not much of a factor.

If we are going to cut low average players, it needs to start with Youk and Gordon.


Beckham did more to help the White Sox win last year than Dunn did. He had a very strong defensive. Beckham also was more likely to drive in runners in scoring position than Dunn was. No contending team this year had a No. 3 hitter with a batting average of .204 in more than .600 plate appearances. I have never seen a contending team with a .204 No. 3 hitter in more than 600 plate appearances. On most teams, hitting .204 will guarantee that you don't hit third and probably that you won't get more than 600 plate appearances.

When you hit .204 and your role is to drive in runs, when you hit .212 with runners in scoring position as an RBI man, your on-base percentage is irrelevant.

Take away Beckham, and you have to plug a hole in the defense or your pitching suffers. Maybe you can do that, maybe not. Youkilis is probably easier to replace than Beckham because he isn't as strong at third as Beckham is at second. Take away Dunn and you don't lose anything but the money committed to him. You likely won't be able to replace all his home runs, but a No. 3 hitter who would have made consistent line-drive contact, putting the ball in play to all fields likely would have driven in more than 96 runs for the White Sox last year.

DH isn't a position. It is an opportunity to put another bat in the lineup. Sticking Dunn there hasn't helped the Sox in the last two years. DH is in need of improvement. Comparing the current White Sox DH situation to past White Sox DH situations is less meaningful than comparing the current situation with what the White Sox could do at DH.
  #84  
Old 11-12-2012, 02:23 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Beckham did more to help the White Sox win last year than Dunn did.
Ummm, no. Beckham's a plus defender, but not great. There's a reason he's a second baseman. He was among the worst 3 hitting second baseman in baseball. There's no way he was more valuable than the guy who hit 40 home runs and led the league in walks.
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I'm not counting this homerun or his 3 RBI from today's game because of the game situation. I'm not counting his pinch hit solo homerun in a blowout win in Colorado. In my book, Crede has 2 less home runs than his statistics show, 4 less RBI, and one less walk (the one where he pinch hit for Uribe after coming in with a 3-0 count and taking one pitch).
  #85  
Old 11-12-2012, 02:32 PM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Originally Posted by TDog View Post

Beckham did more to help the White Sox win last year than Dunn did. He had a very strong defensive. Beckham also was more likely to drive in runners in scoring position than Dunn was. No contending team this year had a No. 3 hitter with a batting average of .204 in more than .600 plate appearances. I have never seen a contending team with a .204 No. 3 hitter in more than 600 plate appearances. On most teams, hitting .204 will guarantee that you don't hit third and probably that you won't get more than 600 plate appearances.

When you hit .204 and your role is to drive in runs, when you hit .212 with runners in scoring position as an RBI man, your on-base percentage is irrelevant.

Take away Beckham, and you have to plug a hole in the defense or your pitching suffers. Maybe you can do that, maybe not. Youkilis is probably easier to replace than Beckham because he isn't as strong at third as Beckham is at second. Take away Dunn and you don't lose anything but the money committed to him. You likely won't be able to replace all his home runs, but a No. 3 hitter who would have made consistent line-drive contact, putting the ball in play to all fields likely would have driven in more than 96 runs for the White Sox last year.

DH isn't a position. It is an opportunity to put another bat in the lineup. Sticking Dunn there hasn't helped the Sox in the last two years. DH is in need of improvement. Comparing the current White Sox DH situation to past White Sox DH situations is less meaningful than comparing the current situation with what the White Sox could do at DH.
I agree, although Beckham was hardly a world beater himself.

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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
Also, nobody is advocating "small ball", but it's very obvious we need a different dynamic on offense. Cut out a few of the low average, high strikeout, poor situational hitters and bring in a few good contact hitters.
I agree. As DSpivak pointed Dunn's last 4 months of 2012 wasn't all that much better than what he did in 2011.
  #86  
Old 11-12-2012, 02:56 PM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
You are really rushing the clock on Viciedo, he doesn't even hit arbitration for 2 more seasons.
Viciedo has 1.123 years service time. He most likely be arb eligible after the 2014 season, but there's a small chance he could hit super-two next season.

Viciedo made 2.5M base salary last year and $1M prorated bonus. So this year he made a total of $3.5M and despite no arbitration rights, Boras will be looking for at least a decent raise on top of that. By the time he hits arbitration, he could be around the $5-6M salary level, and asking for $8-9M if it goes to a hearing.

So yes, it is a bit early, but his salary will escalate soon, which in turn could reduce his trade value, especially if he doesn't grow as an overall hitter.

Yes, all players are different, but I can't help but look at Alexei and assume we're going to see the same lack of growth in plate recognition, situational/contact hitting as Dayan gets older.
  #87  
Old 11-12-2012, 03:33 PM
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I agree, although Beckham was hardly a world beater himself.

I agree. As DSpivak pointed Dunn's last 4 months of 2012 wasn't all that much better than what he did in 2011.
I don't know how anyone can compare that 2011 train wreck to anything he did in 2012. Use your eyes. Adam Dunn was as useful as a door stop in the 2011 season with a .159 avg and he "slugged" .292. In Dunn's supposed "bad stretch" of 2012, (June thru September) he banged out 26HRs and 59RBIs and 63 walks. WAAAAAY better production than anything he did in 2011 and certainly solid power production from your DH spot.

Is Dunn overpaid? Yeah, probably. Should he be batting 3rd? Probably not. However, I have issues with people who say Dunn was "almost as bad" in 2012 as he was in 2011. That is simply not the case. I know that we probably wouldn't have been in first place as long as we were without his power production in the middle of the lineup. The turnarounds of Alex Rios and Adam Dunn were a big part of why we stayed in contention as long as we did in 2012.
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  #88  
Old 11-12-2012, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by dickallen15 View Post
I also agree with you, if you have to pay to get rid of him, keep him, just move him down to 6th or 7th in the line up, at least until he shows he can get back to getting on base like he used to.
You really think there isn't a single team out there that wouldn't take Dunn? A 40HR 100RBI guy who only has two years of financial commitment? A left handed hitter to boot? A guy with over 400 HRs in his career? Take a look at the contracts being handed out around baseball for guys who produce less than Dunn. 36 year old DH David Ortiz (who is injury prone and cannot play the field at all) just got a 2 year contract extension worth $26 million. This is only a little less than what Dunn is owed on his deal. If Hahn put Dunn on the trade market, I guarantee his phone would be ringing.
  #89  
Old 11-12-2012, 04:27 PM
Mr. Jinx Mr. Jinx is offline
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Originally Posted by Foulke You View Post
You really think there isn't a single team out there that wouldn't take Dunn? A 40HR 100RBI guy who only has two years of financial commitment? A left handed hitter to boot? A guy with over 400 HRs in his career? Take a look at the contracts being handed out around baseball for guys who produce less than Dunn. 36 year old DH David Ortiz (who is injury prone and cannot play the field at all) just got a 2 year contract extension worth $26 million. This is only a little less than what Dunn is owed on his deal. If Hahn put Dunn on the trade market, I guarantee his phone would be ringing.
I think there are certain extenuating circumstances there though. The Red Sox traded away what seemed like half their team last year, hired and fired a very unpopular coach, and had one of their worst seasons in years. I think part of that deal was to help out their strained PR. I just can't believe anyone else was going to give out $26mil to an 37 year old former juicer who can't even play a position in the field.
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Old 11-12-2012, 04:47 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Originally Posted by Foulke You View Post
You really think there isn't a single team out there that wouldn't take Dunn? A 40HR 100RBI guy who only has two years of financial commitment? A left handed hitter to boot? A guy with over 400 HRs in his career? Take a look at the contracts being handed out around baseball for guys who produce less than Dunn. 36 year old DH David Ortiz (who is injury prone and cannot play the field at all) just got a 2 year contract extension worth $26 million. This is only a little less than what Dunn is owed on his deal. If Hahn put Dunn on the trade market, I guarantee his phone would be ringing.
Your guarantee would be worthless as I am sure Adam is available.The Sox were the high bidders for Dunn 2 years ago. If teams didn't want to pay him $15 million a year then, why would they now? Ortiz is a better hitter than Dunn. If you can't see that, you obviously must be a relative.
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