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  #61  
Old 10-17-2012, 11:50 AM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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Originally Posted by TheVulture View Post
I don't see how Viciedo can be considered a disappointment. Hit fairly decently for a rookie, had a couple nice stretches and got his feet wet. I think it would be a little overboard to have expected him to come in and just put up all star numbers. At the beginning of the season, it was questionable whether he could even handle playing left field, and he proved to be more than adequate with probably one of the best arms in the league at the position. I'd consider that he kept his head above water at the plate and established himself as a surprisingly effective defender making his rookie season a success.
He's not a rookie (again 711 AB over three seasons) and it's not the base numbers. It's his overall hitting approach and technique. And yes, he's been fairly good at the least important defensive position on the baseball diamond.

Way too many strikeouts and RISP situations given away. Way too many 1-2 and 0-2 counts giving the pitcher a distinct advantage. IMO, his head is well below water at the plate.

There's more to being an effective hitter than hitting an average number of home runs for the position. I know some of you love the long ball and are willing to give him a pass for that, but you don't for Dunn, and Viciedo is the same kind of hitter, without Dunn's plate patience and walks.
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  #62  
Old 10-17-2012, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
He's not a rookie (again 711 AB over three seasons) and it's not the base numbers. It's his overall hitting approach and technique. And yes, he's been fairly good at the least important defensive position on the baseball diamond.

Way too many strikeouts and RISP situations given away. Way too many 1-2 and 0-2 counts giving the pitcher a distinct advantage. IMO, his head is well below water at the plate.

There's more to being an effective hitter than hitting an average number of home runs for the position. I know some of you love the long ball and are willing to give him a pass for that, but you don't for Dunn, and Viciedo is the same kind of hitter, without Dunn's plate patience and walks.
Dunn is 32 years old. Viciedo is 23. That is where the slack is being cut.
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  #63  
Old 10-17-2012, 12:05 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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I know some of you love the long ball and are willing to give him a pass for that, but you don't for Dunn, and Viciedo is the same kind of hitter, without Dunn's plate patience and walks.
That's because Viciedo is a young developing hitter batting at the bottom of the order while Dunn is designated hitter paid to hit in the middle of the lineup. I'll hand it to Dunn he had a strong first half, but once Konerko cooled off, Dunn was useless.

2nd half
Dunn: .199/.304/.427
Viciedo: .259/.305/.445

Obviously, Viciedo needs to improve his approach and learn to take a pitch. Plenty of 23 year old hitters have. Dunn, on the other hand, has to put up numbers worthy of the middle of the order, and he has shown he's not really capable. His first half would indicate at the least he has to have a very good hitter behind him to be effective.
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  #64  
Old 10-17-2012, 01:44 PM
sullythered sullythered is offline
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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
He's not a rookie (again 711 AB over three seasons) and it's not the base numbers. It's his overall hitting approach and technique. And yes, he's been fairly good at the least important defensive position on the baseball diamond.

Way too many strikeouts and RISP situations given away. Way too many 1-2 and 0-2 counts giving the pitcher a distinct advantage. IMO, his head is well below water at the plate.

There's more to being an effective hitter than hitting an average number of home runs for the position. I know some of you love the long ball and are willing to give him a pass for that, but you don't for Dunn, and Viciedo is the same kind of hitter, without Dunn's plate patience and walks.
Phrasing it that way is very misleading. 543 of his 711 came this year. This was absolutely his first real year in the majors. He was, essentially, a rookie.

He will likely never be a great on base guy, but I certainly have seen enough of him, physically, to believe he will get a lot of extra base hits as he progresses. A .744 OPS isn't fantastic, but it is certainly reasonable for a 23 year old. It is superior to Magglio Ordonez's OPS in his first full season (at 24, mind you) and a little below Carlos Lee's OPS in his first full year.

And sure, LF is "the least important" position on the field, but Viciedo absolutely has the arm for RF, if they wanted to play him there.

Dayan Viciedo is a talented young man with a bright future. I don't know how anybody who has watched him can't see that. His limitations are not physical, therefor, they can be overcome. Whether he will develop further (as he has every year) remains to be seen. But the same could have been said for every player who has ever played the game.
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  #65  
Old 10-17-2012, 03:20 PM
thomas35forever thomas35forever is offline
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I think Konerko deserves a "B+". Dunn gets a "C-" from me.
I have to agree with this. People see to forget Paulie was among the top 10 hitters in the AL for most of the year. That alone deserves at least a B grade. Yes, Dunn was among the HR and RBI leaders like he was paid to, but his tendency to strike out was often a liability at the worst possible times. It's literally home run or nothing for him. Anything else just doesn't happen. A C grade is about as high as he deserves to go.
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  #66  
Old 10-17-2012, 03:25 PM
sullythered sullythered is offline
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I have to agree with this. People see to forget Paulie was among the top 10 hitters in the AL for most of the year. That alone deserves at least a B grade. Yes, Dunn was among the HR and RBI leaders like he was paid to, but his tendency to strike out was often a liability at the worst possible times. It's literally home run or nothing for him. Anything else just doesn't happen. A C grade is about as high as he deserves to go.
He walked 105 times.
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  #67  
Old 10-17-2012, 03:29 PM
thomas35forever thomas35forever is offline
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He walked 105 times.
Okay, you have a point there, but that doesn't mask the fact that he still made me nervous as Hell when he came up in key situations, especially after everyone went cold.
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  #68  
Old 10-17-2012, 10:05 PM
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Daver Daver is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
Ehh ... you dislike him because he's not a good outfielder. He could hit 40 homers and drive in 130 runs and you would still want him gone.

You need offense to win in the American League, and the Sox don't have enough. And, yes, I know baseball is not an offensive sport. However, I just watched the worst defensive team in the league take a 2-0 lead in the ALCS yesterday.
He's not that good an offensive player either, doesn't hit for average, doesn't know how to take a walk, strikes out a lot, not a threat on the basepaths if he does manage to get on, I really don't see why people put so much value into a ballplayer with very limited skills.
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  #69  
Old 10-17-2012, 10:27 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
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He's not that good an offensive player either, doesn't hit for average, doesn't know how to take a walk, strikes out a lot, not a threat on the basepaths if he does manage to get on, I really don't see why people put so much value into a ballplayer with very limited skills.
If he were 27 I would agree with you, but he is 23. Guys have been known to improve from when they were 23. I am not Dayan's biggest fan and I agree that he has a lot of places to improve on but I am not ready to give up on him yet.
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  #70  
Old 10-17-2012, 11:13 PM
sullythered sullythered is offline
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Originally Posted by Daver View Post
He's not that good an offensive player either, doesn't hit for average, doesn't know how to take a walk, strikes out a lot, not a threat on the basepaths if he does manage to get on, I really don't see why people put so much value into a ballplayer with very limited skills.
See my earlier post about his OPS by comparison to Magglio and Carlos Lee, at his age. He has a quick bat and an accurate rocket arm. Those are two pretty big "skills."
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  #71  
Old 10-17-2012, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Daver View Post
He's not that good an offensive player either, doesn't hit for average, doesn't know how to take a walk, strikes out a lot, not a threat on the basepaths if he does manage to get on, I really don't see why people put so much value into a ballplayer with very limited skills.
How am I putting so much value on him? It's not like I've compared him to Frank Thomas or something. I've even said in this thread it isn't clear yet whether he'll develop into a middle-of-the-order hitter at the major-league level.

I just think it is unfair to assume he is a finished product at age 23, especially since he has improved since joining the Sox organization.

Two years from now, he might be a good offensive player. And, as much crap as you and others give him for his defense, I'll take him in LF over Juan Pierre any day of the week. I'd take him over Carlos Quentin or Carlos Lee, too, from a defensive standpoint. As sully stated, an accurate, strong arm is an important skill in outfield play.
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  #72  
Old 10-18-2012, 10:50 AM
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Lots of bias in this thread, so I'll add my own.

Konerko was abysmal in the second half. He was really bad. ...
.
And yet, he was better than Dunn. And Konerko was also clearly better in hte first half of hte season than Dunn.

Dunn did walk a lot, but the funny thing is that he walked less as Konerko was less effective behind him in the order. Pitchers seemed to be giving him more to hit when he had less protection behind him.

Fans are putting too big an emphasis on walks and not enough emphais on hitting the ball and making contact. Dunn was the only player in the majors this year to walk more than 100 times, which seems odd enough, but he wasn't even close to the top 10 in on-base percentage. The better teams are doing more actual hitting when they hit.

Dunn strudk out more than he reached base (or rounded the bases) on hits and walks combined. And he had a dismal end to his season. That was the biggest problem in the White Sox lineup this year. Complain about Beckham, complain about Viciedo, complain about Konerko, but the regular who was weakest at driving in runners in scoring position was the hitter who was in the lineup because he is supposed to be a run producer.
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  #73  
Old 10-18-2012, 11:03 AM
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Dunn did walk a lot, but the funny thing is that he walked less as Konerko was less effective behind him in the order. Pitchers seemed to be giving him more to hit when he had less protection behind him.
Nice way to work the stats, funny you didn't mention that he also struck out far less frequently in the 2nd half than 1st, even with Garbage Paul Konerko protecting him. So it's clearly not a case of pitchers just lobbing him meatballs and him swinging through them, as you'd apparently like us all to believe. His BABIP also dropped 36 points from .265 to .229, which could possibly indicate that, at least in part, some of his 2nd half struggles can just be chalked up to bad luck (or, if you want to continue your crazed, anti-Dunn fantacism, overly good luck in the 1st half).
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  #74  
Old 10-18-2012, 12:32 PM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Nice way to work the stats, funny you didn't mention that he also struck out far less frequently in the 2nd half than 1st, even with Garbage Paul Konerko protecting him. So it's clearly not a case of pitchers just lobbing him meatballs and him swinging through them, as you'd apparently like us all to believe. His BABIP also dropped 36 points from .265 to .229, which could possibly indicate that, at least in part, some of his 2nd half struggles can just be chalked up to bad luck (or, if you want to continue your crazed, anti-Dunn fantacism, overly good luck in the 1st half).
The shift killed Dunn. I've actually never seen it work so well against a hitter.

Dunn being bad doesn't excuse Konerko from also being bad. PK had trouble getting the ball out of the infield.
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I'm not counting this homerun or his 3 RBI from today's game because of the game situation. I'm not counting his pinch hit solo homerun in a blowout win in Colorado. In my book, Crede has 2 less home runs than his statistics show, 4 less RBI, and one less walk (the one where he pinch hit for Uribe after coming in with a 3-0 count and taking one pitch).
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  #75  
Old 10-18-2012, 02:30 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Nice way to work the stats, funny you didn't mention that he also struck out far less frequently in the 2nd half than 1st, even with Garbage Paul Konerko protecting him. So it's clearly not a case of pitchers just lobbing him meatballs and him swinging through them, as you'd apparently like us all to believe. His BABIP also dropped 36 points from .265 to .229, which could possibly indicate that, at least in part, some of his 2nd half struggles can just be chalked up to bad luck (or, if you want to continue your crazed, anti-Dunn fantacism, overly good luck in the 1st half).
My crazed anti-Dunn fascination is amazement that fans accept a sub-.220 hitter who struck out at a higher rate than any player in the history of the game with more than 600 plate appearances as part of a strong offense. Giving a positive interpretation to periphial stats does not change the fact that Dunn had an abysmal season. Only if you compare his 2012 to his 2012 can you consider Dunn to have even approached acceptabilty this year.

Dunn didn't even have a very good first half. Fans believed he did because he showed improvement over his first season in a White Sox uniform. And if Konerko was garbage in the second half, he was still a couple of notches above Dunn. You are behind the curve in baseball analysis if you are looking at on-base percentage to the exclusion of batting average because the more successful teams are getting players with higher batting averages contributing to higher on-base percentages.

Dunn didn't hit into bad luck, with a few exceptions and probably no more than anyone else on the team. And if he is hitting outs into the shift, he can't complain about hitting into bad luck because he is doing nothing to beat the shift.

If you are hitting below .220 and you strike out more than 220 times, you aren't an offensive force as much as you are a black hole in the lineup.

If you don't want an offense where everyone is trying to hit a home run every time up, you don't give big money to a defensive liability who tries to hit a home run every time up.
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