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  #46  
Old 10-15-2012, 10:23 PM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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Originally Posted by JB98 View Post
I think it is a mistake to assume Dayan Viciedo will never get any better.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't trade him. He's hardly untouchable. But you don't say "He is what he is" after just one full season in the big leagues.
It's also a mistake to assume he's just going to "figure it out" and not continue to have the poor strike zone judgement/plate discipline/hacking swings after 711 big league at-bats.

That's 289 at-bats short of the much-quoted 1000 at-bats when you can assume you see what you get.

Not to mention a contract showdown coming with Boras within the next 1-3 offseasons.

Next year should certainly be telling.
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  #47  
Old 10-15-2012, 11:19 PM
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It's also a mistake to assume he's just going to "figure it out" and not continue to have the poor strike zone judgement/plate discipline/hacking swings after 711 big league at-bats.

That's 289 at-bats short of the much-quoted 1000 at-bats when you can assume you see what you get.

Not to mention a contract showdown coming with Boras within the next 1-3 offseasons.

Next year should certainly be telling.
True, but in general, this board is so eager to throw up its hands and give up on young players at the first sign of struggle, while at the same time complaining that the Sox never develop any young talent.

Your last statement is 100 percent correct. You can only learn to hit MLB pitching by facing MLB pitching. We'll see if Viciedo learned anything this year. Obviously, it would be nice to see him take a step forward in 2013, but there are no guarantees one way or the other.

At some point, the Sox do need to either develop or acquire some middle-of-the-order hitters, since the 2-6 spots in the lineup were all populated by the 30-and-over crowd this year.

One thing this season should have taught us all is we can no longer count on Paul Konerko to be the centerpiece of the offense. Paul has been so solid for us over the years, but he's going to be 37 next Opening Day and Father Time eventually catches up. Lots of injuries for Konerko this year and it obviously killed his production the second half.
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  #48  
Old 10-15-2012, 11:55 PM
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True, but in general, this board is so eager to throw up its hands and give up on young players at the first sign of struggle, while at the same time complaining that the Sox never develop any young talent.

Your last statement is 100 percent correct. You can only learn to hit MLB pitching by facing MLB pitching. We'll see if Viciedo learned anything this year. Obviously, it would be nice to see him take a step forward in 2013, but there are no guarantees one way or the other.

At some point, the Sox do need to either develop or acquire some middle-of-the-order hitters, since the 2-6 spots in the lineup were all populated by the 30-and-over crowd this year.

One thing this season should have taught us all is we can no longer count on Paul Konerko to be the centerpiece of the offense. Paul has been so solid for us over the years, but he's going to be 37 next Opening Day and Father Time eventually catches up. Lots of injuries for Konerko this year and it obviously killed his production the second half.
The White Sox spent three years developing Dayan Viciedo, with little improvement from what they signed in the first place, that's two more years than they gave Gordon Beckham. Interpret it how you will, I would prefer to chalk it up and move on.
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  #49  
Old 10-16-2012, 12:07 AM
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The White Sox spent three years developing Dayan Viciedo, with little improvement from what they signed in the first place, that's two more years than they gave Gordon Beckham. Interpret it how you will, I would prefer to chalk it up and move on.
Ehh ... you dislike him because he's not a good outfielder. He could hit 40 homers and drive in 130 runs and you would still want him gone.

You need offense to win in the American League, and the Sox don't have enough. And, yes, I know baseball is not an offensive sport. However, I just watched the worst defensive team in the league take a 2-0 lead in the ALCS yesterday.
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  #50  
Old 10-16-2012, 01:23 AM
sullythered sullythered is offline
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The White Sox spent three years developing Dayan Viciedo, with little improvement from what they signed in the first place, that's two more years than they gave Gordon Beckham. Interpret it how you will, I would prefer to chalk it up and move on.
He improved every season, moving up the ranks in the farm system each year. He's 23, an appropriate age for a rookie season for most players, and had solid power numbers. To say he didn't improve over the last three years is just ignoring the evidence. If a guy puts up similar numbers in single A, then double A, then triple A, then the Majors, that is major year to year improvement.
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  #51  
Old 10-16-2012, 08:48 AM
SCCWS SCCWS is offline
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He improved every season, moving up the ranks in the farm system each year. He's 23, an appropriate age for a rookie season for most players, and had solid power numbers. To say he didn't improve over the last three years is just ignoring the evidence. If a guy puts up similar numbers in single A, then double A, then triple A, then the Majors, that is major year to year improvement.
He also has been bounced around defensively. In fairness, he really did not have many games played in left field before he was thrown out there. Learning to play a position for a young player at the major league level is not an ideal situation
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  #52  
Old 10-16-2012, 09:02 AM
SOXSINCE'70 SOXSINCE'70 is offline
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Any 2012 report card that assigns a B+ to Adam Dunn and a C to Paul Konerko can't be taken serioursly.
I think Konerko deserves a "B+". Dunn gets a "C-" from me.
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  #53  
Old 10-16-2012, 01:28 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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I think Konerko deserves a "B+". Dunn gets a "C-" from me.
That is pretty close to what I was thinking.

I probably would have given Dunn a D for 2012, but there were a couple of games that he won with clutch home runs. I was thinking C-. For an RBI man, he consistently had trouble with runners in scoring position. And it really hurt the White Sox.

A B or B+ is fair for Konerko. If you give him a C, you might have to give Dunn a D or D-. Konerko fell off after his wrist problems developed, and fell off more after his concussion. But if you knock him down to a C becasue he hit in the .240s with an OBP over .300 in August and September/October with only 9 home runs, how can you ignore Dunn hitting in the .180s with an OBP under .300 and 10 home runs in August and September/October?
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  #54  
Old 10-16-2012, 01:30 PM
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He also has been bounced around defensively. In fairness, he really did not have many games played in left field before he was thrown out there. Learning to play a position for a young player at the major league level is not an ideal situation
Agreed. The Sox have a habit of bouncing players around defensively. They've done it with both prospects (Beckham, Viciedo) and veteran players (Swisher, Rios). Even an experienced player can suffer offensively if he's asked to play a position where he's not comfortable.

And I disagree with the statement that Viciedo has not improved during his time with the Sox organization. Three years ago, Viciedo hit 12 home runs in 130 games at Birmingham. This year, he hit 25 home runs in 147 games with the White Sox.

How can someone possibly argue that he's not any better than he was when the Sox signed him? We can go back and forth on whether Viciedo will develop into a legitimate middle-of-the-order hitter at the major-league level. I think that's still an open question. To say he's the same guy or close to the same guy the Sox signed in 2008 is ridiculous on its face.
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  #55  
Old 10-16-2012, 02:04 PM
SoxSpeed22 SoxSpeed22 is offline
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All I kept hearing during the offseason was how Viciedo was supposed to be the worst defensive outfielder in all of baseball. He still has some improving to do with getting good reads off the ball as well as taking better routes to the ball, but he made most of the plays that he was supposed to and he also prevented a fair share of runs, since third base coaches got the memo that Viciedo can throw guys out at the plate.
He has the ability to be a 30 home run hitter. He still has to understand pitchers setting him up but showed the ability to drive the ball the other way and hit the ball hard. I also think its absurd to say that Viciedo hasn't improved one bit.
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  #56  
Old 10-16-2012, 02:10 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
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He also has been bounced around defensively. In fairness, he really did not have many games played in left field before he was thrown out there. Learning to play a position for a young player at the major league level is not an ideal situation

The reason he was bounced from positions was because he was bad at the previous position. 3rd base was his, considering the Sox had no one to fill that position. 1st base was a stop gap because the Sox didnt know if PK would be signed and it was before they acquired Dunn. RF was before De Aza came into the picture and Quentin was on his way out. This is a guy that is not good at any position but was given all opportunities available because of his contract and his expectations as a hitter. His true position is still DH but that position is not available for a couple years.
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  #57  
Old 10-16-2012, 02:37 PM
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The reason he was bounced from positions was because he was bad at the previous position. 3rd base was his, considering the Sox had no one to fill that position. 1st base was a stop gap because the Sox didnt know if PK would be signed and it was before they acquired Dunn. RF was before De Aza came into the picture and Quentin was on his way out. This is a guy that is not good at any position but was given all opportunities available because of his contract and his expectations as a hitter. His true position is still DH but that position is not available for a couple years.
Whatever the reason for him being forced from position to position doesn't mean it may or may not have affected his growth at the plate. And let's not pretend like Viciedo is the first kid to ever bounce around defensively in the minors while figuring out how to play; Mark Teixeira was drafted as a SS out of Georgia Tech, spent most of his time in the Rangers' MILB organization as a 3B, before ultimately moving to 1B, where he had blossomed into one of the premier defensive 1B in the league. Add to that, by almost any metric, and take that for what it's worth, Viciedo was consistely ranked as one of the best LF in the American League last year.
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  #58  
Old 10-16-2012, 03:52 PM
sullythered sullythered is offline
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Originally Posted by Noneck View Post
The reason he was bounced from positions was because he was bad at the previous position. 3rd base was his, considering the Sox had no one to fill that position. 1st base was a stop gap because the Sox didnt know if PK would be signed and it was before they acquired Dunn. RF was before De Aza came into the picture and Quentin was on his way out. This is a guy that is not good at any position but was given all opportunities available because of his contract and his expectations as a hitter. His true position is still DH but that position is not available for a couple years.
Viciedo was a perfectly adequate LF this season, and has the tools to develop into a good one. The mistakes he made were clearly his reads (primarily) and that can absolutely be attributed to it being his first year at the position. He has a plus plus arm for LF, and made some fantastic plays this year.
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  #59  
Old 10-17-2012, 09:12 AM
TaylorStSox TaylorStSox is offline
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Lots of bias in this thread, so I'll add my own.

Konerko was abysmal in the second half. He was really bad.

AJ's defense is abysmal. He improved at throwing runners out, but his pitch calling has really fallen off. He won't call pitches in the dirt because he can't block them. He can't move behind the plate anymore.

Viciedo's discipline has improved at every level. There's no reason to not believe he won't do the same here. His defense is adequate. Lee was much worse in LF.

Ramirez continues to be undervalued. He's an awesome defender and drives in runs.

Beckham isn't the defender most would lead you to believe, but he definitely did enough to earn another shot.
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I'm not counting this homerun or his 3 RBI from today's game because of the game situation. I'm not counting his pinch hit solo homerun in a blowout win in Colorado. In my book, Crede has 2 less home runs than his statistics show, 4 less RBI, and one less walk (the one where he pinch hit for Uribe after coming in with a 3-0 count and taking one pitch).
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  #60  
Old 10-17-2012, 12:30 PM
TheVulture TheVulture is offline
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To me Viciedo and Beckham should have the same grade. Both going into the season with good potential, and both being huge disappointments.
I don't see how Viciedo can be considered a disappointment. Hit fairly decently for a rookie, had a couple nice stretches and got his feet wet. I think it would be a little overboard to have expected him to come in and just put up all star numbers. At the beginning of the season, it was questionable whether he could even handle playing left field, and he proved to be more than adequate with probably one of the best arms in the league at the position. I'd consider that he kept his head above water at the plate and established himself as a surprisingly effective defender making his rookie season a success.
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