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  #31  
Old 10-14-2012, 10:22 PM
SephClone89 SephClone89 is offline
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Originally Posted by Daver View Post

I would prefer not to see his return.
I'll bite.

Just because of his defensive limitations? I can't think of anyone the Sox could replace him with who'd come close to his level of production.
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  #32  
Old 10-14-2012, 10:22 PM
Bob Roarman Bob Roarman is offline
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Originally Posted by Daver View Post
I would prefer not to see his return.
Seriously, what's there to lose? It was only his first season. How do you give up on a guy that fast?
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  #33  
Old 10-14-2012, 11:07 PM
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Daver Daver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SephClone89 View Post
I'll bite.

Just because of his defensive limitations? I can't think of anyone the Sox could replace him with who'd come close to his level of production.
If those are the only limitations you see then we have far differing viewpoints. If you are going to concede defense for offensive production from a position, do it with a player that contributes more than just a power hitter. How many playoff games did the Sox win with Carlos Lee standing on the warning track in left field?
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  #34  
Old 10-15-2012, 01:51 AM
Konerko05 Konerko05 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daver View Post
If those are the only limitations you see then we have far differing viewpoints. If you are going to concede defense for offensive production from a position, do it with a player that contributes more than just a power hitter. How many playoff games did the Sox win with Carlos Lee standing on the warning track in left field?
You make such a compelling case, but let's wait and see if Viciedo can improve on his offensive production AND his defense in his second season at age 24.

But you're probably right, if Carlos Lee in LF didn't win any playoffs game with a completely different Sox team, it will be impossible for Dayan Viciedo. Especially with the new rules in place, where playoff victories are decided by the left fielder's resemblance to Carlos Lee.
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  #35  
Old 10-15-2012, 02:08 AM
Konerko05 Konerko05 is offline
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Oh, and Sale gets an A+ without question.

The kid went above and beyond what anyone could have ever expected from him. I don't care if his numbers dipped in the last month of the season. He was completely dominant the rest of the year. His dominance is the main reason we were even above .500.

Not to mention, the kid gave it his all and battled with whatever stuff his dead arm would supply him. If anyone noticed, he lost his really dominant stuff around the 100 game mark, but that didn't stop him beating the opponent by any means necessary. The last month was beyond his control, his stuff had dropped dramatically, which gives you an idea of how his arm must have felt compared to the beginning of the season.

He was a complete warrior, but unlike Peavy, he shut the opposition down when he needed to.

I feel like I'm rambling, but I guess I can't believe anyone thinks he deserves anything under an A+. He was a 23 year old in his first full season as a starter and he carried this broken down team on his broken down arm for the entire season.

I just hope his arm fully recovers and he starts the season with the same electric stuff he had during the first half of this past year. The Sox need to get some inning eaters around him so they can watch his workload a little better. I don't blame them for going for it all, it was just unfortunate Sale was the guy they had to rely on.
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  #36  
Old 10-15-2012, 08:45 AM
LoveYourSuit LoveYourSuit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daver View Post
If those are the only limitations you see then we have far differing viewpoints. If you are going to concede defense for offensive production from a position, do it with a player that contributes more than just a power hitter. How many playoff games did the Sox win with Carlos Lee standing on the warning track in left field?
And Dyan Viciedo is half the offensive players C Lee was.
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  #37  
Old 10-15-2012, 08:58 AM
SephClone89 SephClone89 is offline
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Originally Posted by LoveYourSuit View Post
And Dyan Viciedo is half the offensive players C Lee was.
Actually, at age 23(!) there isn't a massive difference.
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  #38  
Old 10-15-2012, 11:55 AM
Zisk77 Zisk77 is offline
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Got to disagree about a.j. improved defensively. I assume you mean throwing out runners. A.J. has thrown as he always has, bt our pitchers actually hold runners on now. A.J. Has greatly regressed defensively. Way too many passed balls. His age is catching up to him.

Disagree on Gordon being a D+. When your worst hitter hits 14 hrs and drives in over 60 its not a D + even though we expect more from him.
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  #39  
Old 10-15-2012, 12:20 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Any 2012 report card that assigns a B+ to Adam Dunn and a C to Paul Konerko can't be taken serioursly.
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  #40  
Old 10-15-2012, 01:29 PM
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JB98 JB98 is offline
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I think it is a mistake to assume Dayan Viciedo will never get any better.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't trade him. He's hardly untouchable. But you don't say "He is what he is" after just one full season in the big leagues.
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  #41  
Old 10-15-2012, 02:52 PM
34 Inch Stick 34 Inch Stick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SephClone89 View Post
Actually, at age 23(!) there isn't a massive difference.
and other teams won playoff games with Carlos Lee standing on the warning track
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  #42  
Old 10-15-2012, 03:09 PM
Foulke You Foulke You is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SephClone89 View Post
Actually, at age 23(!) there isn't a massive difference.
Power numbers between Lee and Tank at age 23 are comparable. Carlos was a more refined hitter at his age though. Caballo hit for a higher average and far less Ks than Tank. However, Tank is still a very raw talent and it is a mistake to think one season tells the whole story on him. Maybe what we saw in 2012 is the type of hitter he will always be. However, I point to the adjustment Tigers CF Austin Jackson made from 2011 to 2012 to show how a young player can make adjustments and improve quickly at the big league level.

Carlos Lee 1999 Season (Age 23)
.293 Avg
16 HRs
84 RBIs
144 Hits
32 Doubles
72 Ks
13 BBs

Dayan Viciedo 2012 Season (Age 23)
.255 Avg
25 HRs
78 RBIs
129 Hits
18 Doubles
120 Ks
28 BB
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  #43  
Old 10-15-2012, 04:53 PM
LITTLE NELL LITTLE NELL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foulke You View Post
Power numbers between Lee and Tank at age 23 are comparable. Carlos was a more refined hitter at his age though. Caballo hit for a higher average and far less Ks than Tank. However, Tank is still a very raw talent and it is a mistake to think one season tells the whole story on him. Maybe what we saw in 2012 is the type of hitter he will always be. However, I point to the adjustment Tigers CF Austin Jackson made from 2011 to 2012 to show how a young player can make adjustments and improve quickly at the big league level.

Carlos Lee 1999 Season (Age 23)
.293 Avg
16 HRs
84 RBIs
144 Hits
32 Doubles
72 Ks
13 BBs

Dayan Viciedo 2012 Season (Age 23)
.255 Avg
25 HRs
78 RBIs
129 Hits
18 Doubles
120 Ks
28 BB
I'm on the side that says Viciedo should improve with age, but he will need to learn the strike zone and cut down on that swing. Just hope that TCM isn't giving him any hitting tips. I also thought he did a fine job in LF, butchered a couple of plays but he sure beats Juan Pierre, can't forget that the Sox have moved him around like a ping pong ball from 3B to RF and now LF.
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Last edited by LITTLE NELL; 10-15-2012 at 05:03 PM.
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  #44  
Old 10-15-2012, 05:48 PM
SephClone89 SephClone89 is offline
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Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL View Post
I also thought he did a fine job in LF, butchered a couple of plays but he sure beats Juan Pierre, can't forget that the Sox have moved him around like a ping pong ball from 3B to RF and now LF.
Don't forget that he was briefly the Sox first baseman of the future, prior to Dunn and Konerko's signings.
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  #45  
Old 10-15-2012, 07:57 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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DeAza is an absolute A. I don't know what you guys want.
I'd give Santiago a B.
Jones a B+
Wise a C (unless we are grading him in relation to the career- Wise; but then he'd deserve an A).
Tank a C+ - he's got to develop some plate discipline.
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