2012 player grades

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by SCCWS

Floyd had one very good year, 2008 where he went 17-8 w a 3.84 era. For the last 4 years he has been a .500 pitcher who will give you 30 starts. However his ERA the last 2 years has jumped a little from 4.00 to 4.30. He is an average # 4 AL starter on a decent team.

The point overall is that a pitcher's W-L record is kind of a pointless stat; Floyd may be .500 since 2009 but in that time, he's also had only 5 cheap wins (wins in non-QS starts) and 11 tough losses (losses in QS). The Sox bullpen has also lost more games where he was in line to win than the offense has come back to win games for him over that span.

Floyd's certainly had his struggles, but citing his W-L record doesn't really show anything of value.

[SCCWS]

Originally Posted by doublem23

The point overall is that a pitcher's W-L record is kind of a pointless stat; Floyd may be .500 since 2009 but in that time, he's also had only 5 cheap wins (wins in non-QS starts) and 11 tough losses (losses in QS). The Sox bullpen has also lost more games where he was in line to win than the offense has come back to win games for him over that span.

Floyd's certainly had his struggles, but citing his W-L record doesn't really show anything of value.

I think 4 years or 120 starts is a decent sampling. Every starting pitcher is affected by the team around them. Pitchers on good offensive teams certainly have an advantage over those on weak teams. Those on teams with strong bullpens also have an advantage. But we are judging Gavin Floyd on the White Sox. He is 45-48 the last 4 years and his ERA has risen from his only good year at 3.84 to the 4.30 he has been the last 2 years. Chris Sale had the same offense and bullpen behind him as Floyd did this year and he put up huge numbers. I agree some guys, like Peavy this year, have good years and a lousy record. But 4 years takes out some of the numeric oddities.

If I was a betting person, Gavin Floyd will be a .500 pitcher next year as well if he stays on the White Sox.

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by SCCWS

I think 4 years or 120 starts is a decent sampling. Every starting pitcher is affected by the team around them. Pitchers on good offensive teams certainly have an advantage over those on weak teams. Those on teams with strong bullpens also have an advantage. But we are judging Gavin Floyd on the White Sox. He is 45-48 the last 4 years and his ERA has risen from his only good year at 3.84 to the 4.30 he has been the last 2 years. Chris Sale had the same offense and bullpen behind him as Floyd did this year and he put up huge numbers. I agree some guys, like Peavy this year, have good years and a lousy record. But 4 years takes out some of the numeric oddities.

If I was a betting person, Gavin Floyd will be a .500 pitcher next year as well if he stays on the White Sox.

No, I just pointed out that Floyd's record has been unfairly deflated by the team around him. The bullpen has blown more wins for him than the offense has come back to win and he's lost 2x as many games when he threw a quality start than games the Sox won when he did not. He's a .500ish pitcher more likely because the Sox are a .500ish team, not the other way around.

[Frater Perdurabo]

Originally Posted by doublem23

No, I just pointed out that Floyd's record has been unfairly deflated by the team around him. The bullpen has blown more wins for him than the offense has come back to win and he's lost 2x as many games when he threw a quality start than games the Sox won when he did not. He's a .500ish pitcher more likely because the Sox are a .500ish team, not the other way around.

So he's a #3 on an average team; #4 on a playoff team; #2 on a lousy team. Innings eater. Meh.

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo

So he's a #3 on an average team; #4 on a playoff team; #2 on a lousy team. Innings eater. Meh.

Basically, he's pretty much the same pitcher as Phil Hughes who the Yankees, the best team in the AL, had in their #3/#4 spot all year long.

[russ99]

To me Viciedo and Beckham should have the same grade. Both going into the season with good potential, and both being huge disappointments.

I'd give each a C+/D-, a bit higher than I'd like for Beckham's defense and Viciedo's power which seem to be the only thing these guys can do consistently. And both with some of the worst approaches at the plate I've seen in supposedly major league regulars.

[ChicagoG19]

A "D+" for everyone. They played better than people expected, but choked away a three game lead the last two weeks of the season.

[34rancher]

Originally Posted by doublem23

No, I just pointed out that Floyd's record has been unfairly deflated by the team around him. The bullpen has blown more wins for him than the offense has come back to win and he's lost 2x as many games when he threw a quality start than games the Sox won when he did not. He's a .500ish pitcher more likely because the Sox are a .500ish team, not the other way around.

I think stats are vastly overrated except one. Wins and losses. All that matters is did you win or not. Don't cry me a sob story on lack of run support or pitching against. It's all about team. You can have the best WHIP, ERA, etc, but if team isn't winning really who cares?
What did the TEAM do when you started a game:
Sale: 18-11
Floyd: 16-13
Quintana: 12-10
League average: .504
Humber: 8-8
Peavy: 15-17
Liriano:5-6

As for position players, what a choke job after ASB when we fell in love with the home run and started uppercut swinging. How do the playoffs look from home? Outside of the best hitter in baseball, how are all those home run hitters doing in MLB. Just be consistent and hit the ball.

[SephClone89]

Originally Posted by 34rancher

I think stats are vastly overrated except one. Wins and losses. All that matters is did you win or not. Don't cry me a sob story on lack of run support or pitching against. It's all about team. You can have the best WHIP, ERA, etc, but if team isn't winning really who cares?
What did the TEAM do when you started a game:
Sale: 18-11
Floyd: 16-13
Quintana: 12-10
League average: .504
Humber: 8-8
Peavy: 15-17
Liriano:5-6

[eastchicagosoxfan]

I'd give Dunn a C- at best. His job on offense is to drive in runs. We had pretty good production from our lead-off man. The two hole was okay. I think Dunn left way too many ducks on the proverbial pond. Walks don't drive in runs unless the bases are loaded. 222 strikeouts means he saw plenty of good pitches to hit. 41 home runs is good. Only 19 doubles, and only 50 singles is terrible.

[Frater Perdurabo]

Originally Posted by 34rancher

I think stats are vastly overrated except one. Wins and losses. All that matters is did you win or not. Don't cry me a sob story on lack of run support or pitching against. It's all about team. You can have the best WHIP, ERA, etc, but if team isn't winning really who cares?
What did the TEAM do when you started a game:
Sale: 18-11
Floyd: 16-13
Quintana: 12-10
League average: .504
Humber: 8-8
Peavy: 15-17
Liriano:5-6

As for position players, what a choke job after ASB when we fell in love with the home run and started uppercut swinging. How do the playoffs look from home? Outside of the best hitter in baseball, how are all those home run hitters doing in MLB. Just be consistent and hit the ball.

Is this shtick? How can anyone argue that Peavy was worse than Floyd and Humber? What a joke.

[SCCWS]

Originally Posted by 34rancher

I think stats are vastly overrated except one. Wins and losses. All that matters is did you win or not. Don't cry me a sob story on lack of run support or pitching against. It's all about team. You can have the best WHIP, ERA, etc, but if team isn't winning really who cares?
What did the TEAM do when you started a game:
Sale: 18-11
Floyd: 16-13
Quintana: 12-10
League average: .504
Humber: 8-8
Peavy: 15-17
Liriano:5-6

.

HUH????? Under your theory, a starting pitcher who gets knocked out of the game in the first inning but the team comes back and wins the game gets credit. Or a starting pitcher who goes 7 innings and leaves with the score 8-8 and his team goes on and wins gets credit? You need to look at their wins/losses and ERA to get an evaluation of how someone is pitching. Why Humber looks better at 8-8 until you factor in his terrible ERA

[Daver]

Originally Posted by russ99

To me Viciedo and Beckham should have the same grade. Both going into the season with good potential, and both being huge disappointments.

I'd give each a C+/D-, a bit higher than I'd like for Beckham's defense and Viciedo's power which seem to be the only thing these guys can do consistently. And both with some of the worst approaches at the plate I've seen in supposedly major league regulars.

It was known going in that Beckham was not in the lineup for his bat, it was also known that Viciedo was a complete gamble all the way around, and it proved to be a losing gamble in the long run.

[SephClone89]

Originally Posted by russ99

To me Viciedo and Beckham should have the same grade. Both going into the season with good potential, and both being huge disappointments.

I'd give each a C+/D-, a bit higher than I'd like for Beckham's defense and Viciedo's power which seem to be the only thing these guys can do consistently. And both with some of the worst approaches at the plate I've seen in supposedly major league regulars.

Originally Posted by Daver

It was known going in that Beckham was not in the lineup for his bat, it was also known that Viciedo was a complete gamble all the way around, and it proved to be a losing gamble in the long run.

I think we're being a bit harsh on Viciedo here. I'm not a huge fan, but he had a decent season for being a 23 year old in his first full season in the bigs. He destroyed lefties...in 2013 he has to prove that he's more than just a platoon player.

[Daver]

Originally Posted by SephClone89

I think we're being a bit harsh on Viciedo here. I'm not a huge fan, but he had a decent season for being a 23 year old in his first full season in the bigs. He destroyed lefties...in 2013 he has to prove that he's more than just a platoon player.

I would prefer not to see his return.