Ventura and Coaching Staff to Return in 2013

[October26]

Originally Posted by chisoxgirl

i ♥ robin and couldn't possibly be more thrilled about this news.

+1

[SCCWS]

Originally Posted by slavko

This would be easier to accept if we had a way of equalizing for the ballpark factor. We play in a smallish home stadium. Don't misread me, I think Coop's a halo guy.

Good point. Another factor is the quality of player Coop is given. If KW is not providing quality young pitchers like Sale, it is tough to make them into good ML pitchers.

[russ99]

Originally Posted by TDog

I don't think there was anything Ventura could do differently with the pitching staff to keep pitching from running out of gas in late September.

I do. Keep the rotation intact despite guys getting injured.

Seems that every other starter's spot got jerked around often to save innings off Peavy and Sale's arms. Had the other guys stayed on track, maybe we wouldn't have had so many 5 inning outings in September.

Also the bullpen was managed beyond poorly, though there's truth behind that it could have been due to so many rookies, Crane's injury and lack of performance at times by Thornton and Myers.

No real bullpen roles, except Veal's maddening one-hitter outings, putting closers in non-save situations, putting in different guys in the 7th, 8th and 9th inning pretty much every other game, and the rapid-fire pitching changes specifically in September killed any chance of these guys to get into a rhythm.

I hope next year there's a system in place and not our pitchers getting swapped around at (mostly Cooper's) whim.

[Lip Man 1]

It has to be better as long as he doesn't use Septimo under ANY circumstances (despite what Cooper thinks...)

Lip

[hawkjt]

If the Sox collapse was biblical,then Texas was even worse. They led their division by a healthy margin for the whole season,have back to back World Series talent augmented by a 150 million investment in a hot shot starter from Japan,and a payroll north of 150 million,and they lost 11 of their last 15 to make a quick exit from the proceedings.

Point is, collapse's like the Sox are fairly common. Last year it was the Braves and Red Sox.

I am glad that Robin and staff are back. Like any manager and staff,they made some mistakes,but overall, they did a great job squeezing everything out of their talent.

As for Russ's criticism's of the bullpen and rotation....sounds like Ozzie-mancrush sour grapes to me.
Between injuries to the vet pen guys,and a bunch of rookies in new territory at the end of the season, Coop and Robin had to go piecemeal...same with the rotation. When you are forced to roll the dice,you do not always win....nature of the beast.

[TDog]

Originally Posted by russ99

I do. Keep the rotation intact despite guys getting injured.

Seems that every other starter's spot got jerked around often to save innings off Peavy and Sale's arms. Had the other guys stayed on track, maybe we wouldn't have had so many 5 inning outings in September.

Also the bullpen was managed beyond poorly, though there's truth behind that it could have been due to so many rookies, Crane's injury and lack of performance at times by Thornton and Myers.

No real bullpen roles, except Veal's maddening one-hitter outings, putting closers in non-save situations, putting in different guys in the 7th, 8th and 9th inning pretty much every other game, and the rapid-fire pitching changes specifically in September killed any chance of these guys to get into a rhythm.

I hope next year there's a system in place and not our pitchers getting swapped around at (mostly Cooper's) whim.

There were times I disagreed with pitching moves Ventura made, but the pitching failures were moves that I agreed with as often as moves I disagreed with. I watch other teams play baseball, and I disagreed with other managers' moves as often as I disagreed with Ventura's. And fans have no idea, and for competeitive reasons shouldn't have any idea, about what is going on with how pitchers are feeling. Evey starter for Oakland this season was jerked around in the rotation, except for the one that was suspended for testing positive for performance enhancing drugs.

Fans can disagree with moves that go wrong. Sometimes it's second-guessing. Sometimes the results fulffill the fears. Complain that Ventura made the "wrong" move, but even the "right" move failed, maybe as much as the "right" move. You really don't know how things would have gone if Reed had started the ninth inning in the last game in Boston. Complain that Myers should have stayed in another inning, but that didn't work in the game against Tampa Bay that the Sox needed to win to stay in the race the last weekend of the season.

[thomas35forever]

I know the end of the year was disappointing, but when all the Sox did was "collapse" in a mediocre division, I don't consider that grounds for dismissal. And besides, we never led by more than a few games anyway. Now if we actually did pull a Rangers this year, I might have thought about it, but even then, my opinion would have been sketchy at best. This coaching staff, for the most part, seems to have its act together without all the Ozzie drama. I'll be happy to welcome them all back to the dugout next year.

[Tragg]

Originally Posted by hawkjt

If the Sox collapse was biblical,then Texas was even worse.

Probably true.
But the chances of Washington returning, despite 2 WS appearances, are about 30/70 I'd estimate.

[Saracen]

Originally Posted by Tragg

Probably true.
But the chances of Washington returning, despite 2 WS appearances, are about 30/70 I'd estimate.

Wash ain't going anywhere despite horribly managing this year - 5 guys who played 155 games, 7 guys who played 145 games. Those are records you don't want to have and obviously the reason they ran out of gas.

Robin did a fine job with mediocre talent and a mass of injuries all year. Glad he'll be back.

[russ99]

Originally Posted by hawkjt

If the Sox collapse was biblical,then Texas was even worse. They led their division by a healthy margin for the whole season,have back to back World Series talent augmented by a 150 million investment in a hot shot starter from Japan,and a payroll north of 150 million,and they lost 11 of their last 15 to make a quick exit from the proceedings.

Point is, collapse's like the Sox are fairly common. Last year it was the Braves and Red Sox.

I am glad that Robin and staff are back. Like any manager and staff,they made some mistakes,but overall, they did a great job squeezing everything out of their talent.

As for Russ's criticism's of the bullpen and rotation....sounds like Ozzie-mancrush sour grapes to me.
Between injuries to the vet pen guys,and a bunch of rookies in new territory at the end of the season, Coop and Robin had to go piecemeal...same with the rotation. When you are forced to roll the dice,you do not always win....nature of the beast.

Nothing to do with Ozzie, that stuff has passed. Its obvious that some of the rapid-fire pitching moves and leaning too hard on Coop were rookie mistakes. I'm hopeful that Robin will get it more right than wrong next year.

[PalehosePlanet]

Originally Posted by TDog

To build on Daver's point, Eddie Stanky's firing came in June of 1968, 79 games into the season with the White Sox 18.5 games out of first, ninth in the 10-team American League in the last year before divisional play. Stanky wasn't fired after the collapse of 1967, which involved losing the last five games. He wasn't fired in April after the Sox lost their first 10 games of 1968. It has been said that Stanky didn't relate well to black players. I don't know that that is documented. That may be an assumption people have made based on Stanky being one of the Dodgers who started a petition to keep Jackie Robinson off of the team.

The Sox never had a big lead in either 1967 or 2012. They never pulled away. The most notable collapses in baseball were the 1951 Dodgers (up 13 on August 11), 1969 Cubs (up 9 on August 16), 1964 Phillies (up 6.5 with 12 to play) and the 2012 Rangers (up 5 with 9 to play) did not fire their managers in the offseason.

Charlie Dressen went on to win pennants with the Dodgers in 1952 and 1953 after Leo Durocher's Giants beat him out in 1951. Durocher was midway through his 1972 season with before the his Cubs tenure reached critical mass (as with Guillen ifor the 2011 White Sox). Gene Mauch wasn't fired by the Phillies until 1968. And I don't see the Rangers firing Ron Washington anytime soon.

It's true that Washington went to the World Series for two straight years, and lost to teams the public underestimated. But Durocher and Mauch were managing long suffering teams that seemed to miss their window. Dressen was a rookie manager for a team that had never won a World Series.

There is no reason to blame Ventura for this year's White Sox collapse, blowing that three game lead with 15 to go.

And, really, I didn't see Ventura being outmaneauvered by other managers. There was a criticism from the start that he went too long with his starting pitchers, but I always believed that was to save the rookiie-heavy bullpen. I think he was good at getting the matchups he wanted. In the end, the players didn't execute. The wasted opportunities over the last two weeks was the result of players not executing. The problem wasn't with players bunting the go-ahead run to third where he could score on a fly ball, the problem was hitters striking out with the runner on third and not scoring him.

I don't think there is any problem with the manager and coaching staff, although the third-base coach did seem to be at the center of a lot of failures in September. I don't think there was anything Ventura could do differently with the pitching staff to keep pitching from running out of gas in late September. For example, the problem wasn't that Adam Dunn was hitting third, it was that he was in the lineup at all. If you have an offense that hits a lot of home runs, that strikes out a lot and doesn't hit for a high batting average, as opposed to an offense that makes solid, consistent line-drive contact, your offense is vulnerable to being shut down. Hitting isn't about OPS, its about hitting.

Don't forget that the Red Sox and Braves had 9 and 9.5 game wild card leads on Labor Day last year and both blew it. Also, the 2007 Mets led by 7.5 games w/17 games to go and choked.

I don't consider the Rangers in that group because they did make the playoffs -- however briefly.

[TDog]

Originally Posted by PalehosePlanet

Don't forget that the Red Sox and Braves had 9 and 9.5 game wild card leads on Labor Day last year and both blew it. Also, the 2007 Mets led by 7.5 games w/17 games to go and choked.

I don't consider the Rangers in that group because they did make the playoffs -- however briefly.

One of the problems with the wild card is that the Rangers technically made the postseason. If you blow a 5 game lead with 9 to play and finish second, you have no business making the postseason. Really, the Rangers didn't make the postseason. They had a one-game playoff with another second-place team for the opportunity to make the postseason. And they lost, completing their collapse. I hope the new wild-card format restores respect for division titles.

Wild card leads don't really count in collapses. They weren't going to win anything. There is no such thing as a wild card title. The Rangers collapse was worse than any of the others you cited, in part because everyone in the sports media was talking for six months about the Rangers winning the West being the only sure thing in the American League, longer if you go back to the wake of their last World Series loss.

The Rangers had been in first place since April 9, Alex Rios having knocked them out of first with a home run in the second game of the season before winning 11 of their next 12. And I would be very surprised if Ron Washington isn't managing the Rangers when they open their 2013 season.

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by TDog

Wild card leads don't really count in collapses. They weren't going to win anything. There is no such thing as a wild card title.

Hm, except that yes, they do. Hard to argue the wild card doesn't count for anything when the defending World Champion of Base Ball was a wild card winner.

[SCCWS]

Originally Posted by Saracen

Wash ain't going anywhere despite horribly managing this year - 5 guys who played 155 games, 7 guys who played 145 games. Those are records you don't want to have and obviously the reason they ran out of gas.

Robin did a fine job with mediocre talent and a mass of injuries all year. Glad he'll be back.

I agree with you except for "mass of injuries". Look around the American League. Teams like New York, K C, Tampa and Boston had "mass of injuries". I would say the White Sox fit in the normal group.

[SCCWS]

Originally Posted by russ99

Nothing to do with Ozzie, that stuff has passed. Its obvious that some of the rapid-fire pitching moves and leaning too hard on Coop were rookie mistakes. I'm hopeful that Robin will get it more right than wrong next year.

I would think some bullpen decisions are made before the game starts. Living in New England, I see a ton of Red Sox games. Their announcers often say during games that certain pitchers are not available that game due to their workload the previous few nights. Obviously they got that information in their pre-game meeting w the manager.
Since I don't see many White sox games, I would ask this. When the call goes to the bullpen to start warming someone up, who makes the call. Does Robin or Coop typically call down to get someone up???? That may indicate who is making the bullpen decisions. Maybe for his first year Robin let Coop decide on the bullpen rotation. Or had it been written Robin made all the decisions?