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  #31  
Old 10-09-2012, 10:11 PM
DrCrawdad DrCrawdad is offline
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Originally Posted by CoopaLoop View Post
Colvin was a 26 year old failure.

Let's take a look at those away from Coors numbers, shall we?

244/274/414
How were Ian Stewart's numbers away from Coors this year?

Your regular defense of Theo Epstein here is one thing but even most Cub fans I know candidly admit the Ian Stewart trade was bad. Trying to find a silver lining on the Stewart deal is puzzling.
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  #32  
Old 10-09-2012, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by CoopaLoop View Post
Colvin was a 26 year old failure.

Let's take a look at those away from Coors numbers, shall we?

244/274/414
Mm, still an upgrade over a 27-year-old failure who hit .201/.292/.335 all season, which is the guy they picked up for him
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  #33  
Old 10-09-2012, 10:39 PM
CoopaLoop CoopaLoop is offline
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Originally Posted by DrCrawdad View Post
How were Ian Stewart's numbers away from Coors this year?

Your regular defense of Theo Epstein here is one thing but even most Cub fans I know candidly admit the Ian Stewart trade was bad. Trying to find a silver lining on the Stewart deal is puzzling.
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Mm, still an upgrade over a 27-year-old failure who hit .201/.292/.335 all season, which is the guy they picked up for him
I said it was a meh for meh deal.

I suppose you could say the Cubs could have been able to get something of value for Colvin if he did anything like that had he stayed, but he had become a failed prospect. He went the way of many failed prospects and was traded in a change of scenery deal that had nothing of consequence in it.
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  #34  
Old 10-10-2012, 12:20 AM
Bob Roarman Bob Roarman is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Mm, still an upgrade over a 27-year-old failure who hit .201/.292/.335 all season, which is the guy they picked up for him
Well the guy they traded the season before failed to hit over .150. If the change of scenery worked out for him, there's nothing you can do. Like Coopa said, that's what the deal was dependent on with both the players being traded. Looks like it may work out for Colvin, not so much with Stewart. Oh well.
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  #35  
Old 10-10-2012, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by CoopaLoop View Post
I'd call D.J Lemaheiu and Tyler Colvin for Ian Stewart a wash.

Was there something else to that trade? That's meh for meh.
The Sean Marshall trade was not particularly good either. I think they hoped for better than they got from Travis Wood. I'm sure Wood will be in their rotation against next year. He's left-handed and still young, but he hasn't established himself yet.

They relieved themselves of a headache with the Zambrano deal, but Volstad was a complete disaster for them as well.

I don't see how you can say the only thing that went wrong for Theo and Friends was the Dempster trade. There's really not much question the best piece they had to trade was Garza. Unlike Dempster, Garza can pitch in the American League. He's the kind of guy who can help any team in baseball. He's simply a better pitcher than Dempster. Unfortunately for the Cubs, he went down at the worst possible time, killing his trade value in the short run. The Cubs will probably have to hold on to him until he proves he's healthy, and then they won't get as good a return as they would have had they been able to deal him in July.

The Cubs still have bad contracts in Soriano and Marmol that they need to move. They would have liked to have gotten Soriano's ass out of there in July, too, but he wouldn't approve a deal to the Giants.

I don't see how the failures of guys like Jackson and Vitters are wins for Theo's regime. Sure, those players are left over from the Hendry Era, but wouldn't it have been beneficial for the Cubs if those guys had shown SOMETHING, if for no other reason than to increase their trade value?

I think the Cubs' positives this year were limited to Rizzo and Samardzija. At this point, Theo and Friends have realized the hole is even deeper than they thought. That's why they've gone public in pleading for patience from the fans. It's going to be horrible on the North Side again next year and probably the year after that as well.
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  #36  
Old 10-10-2012, 07:26 AM
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The Sean Marshall trade was not particularly good either. I think they hoped for better than they got from Travis Wood. I'm sure Wood will be in their rotation against next year. He's left-handed and still young, but he hasn't established himself yet.
What? They moved a reliever for a starter.
I don't think a 100 loss team in rebuilding mode is going to feel the effects of losing a set up man.

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I don't see how you can say the only thing that went wrong for Theo and Friends was the Dempster trade. There's really not much question the best piece they had to trade was Garza. Unlike Dempster, Garza can pitch in the American League. He's the kind of guy who can help any team in baseball. He's simply a better pitcher than Dempster. Unfortunately for the Cubs, he went down at the worst possible time, killing his trade value in the short run. The Cubs will probably have to hold on to him until he proves he's healthy, and then they won't get as good a return as they would have had they been able to deal him in July.
Garza got hurt, Theo and friends didn't fumble anything there.


Quote:
I don't see how the failures of guys like Jackson and Vitters are wins for Theo's regime. Sure, those players are left over from the Hendry Era, but wouldn't it have been beneficial for the Cubs if those guys had shown SOMETHING, if for no other reason than to increase their trade value?
Um, what? Who said that?
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  #37  
Old 10-10-2012, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by CoopaLoop View Post
Um, what? Who said that?
I think you effectively did when you note that the only thing that went wrong for Theo and his Cubbies was the Dempster deal. They made an awful lot of mistakes this year, and the team is, at least for the time being, worse off because of them.
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  #38  
Old 10-10-2012, 09:31 AM
SCCWS SCCWS is offline
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Since I am a die-hard White Sox fan living in New England, I don't share the Cub hatred that many White Sox fans do. I am just glad Theo is out of Boston. Obviously the Red Sox spend money, but what Theo accomplished in Boston with their minor league system was very frustrating to a die hard White Sox fan. At one time, the Red Sox just went out and bought talent because their minor league was terrible. But that all changed w Theo. It didn't take them long before they were producing quality talent from the minors. Players like Buchholz, Pedroia, Papelbon, Youk, Ellsbury etc. It seemed in the last 6-7 years, that every time they got an injury, they could get by with some call-up who played like they belonged for a month or so. As a White Sox fan, it was frustrating because it seemed like every time we needed an emergency call-up, they were lucky to hit their weight.
The last few years, when the Red Sox had an outfield injury, up would come Josh Reddick. I would watch this kid and say how come the White Sox never seem to have someone this good waiting in the wings. When Reddick got hurt filling in for JD Drew who was hurt, they brought up Ryan Kalish who looked just as good as Reddick. When Youk started having problems this year, up comes Middlebrooks. He looked like a stud his first month. Luckily for us, he made Youk expendable but it is frustrating watching a team you hate that always seems to have viable options in the minoirs that can fill in on an interim basis.

So I wouldn't write Theo off. If the Cubs spend like Boston did, I would bet he will have their farm system well stocked in 2-3 years. I am glad to see him gone from Boston because his replacement has not had a good start.
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  #39  
Old 10-10-2012, 09:58 AM
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Well, one of Theo's tricks in Boston was to pay well over slot for guys that would fall due to signability issues, which, in theory is something the new draft rules will snuff out.

I'm not really sure if the Red Sox are doing the minor league thing that much more productively than other teams, they're just able to buy a better core of guys to build around. From your "why don't the Sox have anyone as good as Josh Reddick in the minors?" question, here's two players, try and figure out which is which...

Player A - Career .263/.307/.436 hitter, averages 23 HR, 73 RBI, 70 R, 21 D, 30 BB, and 127 K per 162 games played
Player B - Career .244/.300/.445 hitter, averages 23 HR, 66 RBI, 74 R, 29 D, 42 BB, 126 K per 162 games played.

Reddick is Player B. Dayan Viciedo is Player A. It seems like there's a bit of a case of "the grass is always greener on the other side," here.

What will make the Cubs rebuild work, whenever they decide to do it, is that they are still one of Major League baseball's money machines. They will eventually be able to pay for top-notch talent. They're not going to be able to compete as long as they pretend like they can rebuild the organization from bottom up. That basically never works in baseball.
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  #40  
Old 10-10-2012, 10:58 AM
The Immigrant The Immigrant is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
What will make the Cubs rebuild work, whenever they decide to do it, is that they are still one of Major League baseball's money machines. They will eventually be able to pay for top-notch talent. They're not going to be able to compete as long as they pretend like they can rebuild the organization from bottom up. That basically never works in baseball.
Right, and in the meantime the Ricketts clan will be pocketing substantial sums of money that can be used to pay down debt or finance stadium renovations. They will get away with it because Cub fans will continue to renew their season tickets regardless of how long the team continues to suck and regardless of how low the team's payroll gets.
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  #41  
Old 10-10-2012, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by CoopaLoop View Post
What? They moved a reliever for a starter.
I don't think a 100 loss team in rebuilding mode is going to feel the effects of losing a set up man.

Garza got hurt, Theo and friends didn't fumble anything there.
No, there is nothing wrong with trading Sean Marshall. The decision to move Marshall was the correct one. The issue is with the return. I think they thought Travis Wood would establish himself as a valuable member of the rotation moving forward. He has not done that to this point. Too soon to give up on him, sure, but I'm not impressed so far.

And, no, Theo and Friends didn't fumble anything with Garza. Nevertheless, the worst thing that happened to them this year was Garza going down at an inopportune time. Given his talent level, track record and reasonable contract situation, the Cubs could have netted a nice return had they moved him to a contender this summer. Due to the injury, it blew up in their faces. That defeats the argument that the Dempster deal was the only thing that went wrong for the Cubs this year.

Frankly, I think the Cubs did about all they could do with Dempster. He had his 10-and-5 rights. There's nothing the club can do about that. The player had his rights and he exercised them. I don't think there was as big a market for Dempster's services as people thought or maybe hoped. The Rangers panicked a little bit when they lost Greinke to a division rival, and the Yankees were in a tight spot with both Sabathia and Pettitte on the shelf at the same time. The desperation of those two clubs created a little bit of a market for Dempster. The Cubs got what they could.

This year didn't go well at all for the Cubs. They had very few young players capitalize on the opportunities they were given. They've got even more work to do than maybe they realized coming into the situation.
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  #42  
Old 10-10-2012, 03:31 PM
DrCrawdad DrCrawdad is offline
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I think you effectively did when you note that the only thing that went wrong for Theo and his Cubbies was the Dempster deal. They made an awful lot of mistakes this year, and the team is, at least for the time being, worse off because of them.
Agreed! Well put.
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  #43  
Old 10-10-2012, 03:44 PM
Moses_Scurry Moses_Scurry is offline
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No, there is nothing wrong with trading Sean Marshall. The decision to move Marshall was the correct one. The issue is with the return. I think they thought Travis Wood would establish himself as a valuable member of the rotation moving forward. He has not done that to this point. Too soon to give up on him, sure, but I'm not impressed so far.

And, no, Theo and Friends didn't fumble anything with Garza. Nevertheless, the worst thing that happened to them this year was Garza going down at an inopportune time. Given his talent level, track record and reasonable contract situation, the Cubs could have netted a nice return had they moved him to a contender this summer. Due to the injury, it blew up in their faces. That defeats the argument that the Dempster deal was the only thing that went wrong for the Cubs this year.

Frankly, I think the Cubs did about all they could do with Dempster. He had his 10-and-5 rights. There's nothing the club can do about that. The player had his rights and he exercised them. I don't think there was as big a market for Dempster's services as people thought or maybe hoped. The Rangers panicked a little bit when they lost Greinke to a division rival, and the Yankees were in a tight spot with both Sabathia and Pettitte on the shelf at the same time. The desperation of those two clubs created a little bit of a market for Dempster. The Cubs got what they could.

This year didn't go well at all for the Cubs. They had very few young players capitalize on the opportunities they were given. They've got even more work to do than maybe they realized coming into the situation.
They could have traded him before the season. 2 years of him pre-injury would have probably brought an amazing return.
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  #44  
Old 10-10-2012, 08:09 PM
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I don't get why Cub supporters are so worked up. They only failed to meet their goal of a 63 win season by two wins. Things could be worse.
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  #45  
Old 10-11-2012, 08:56 AM
SCCWS SCCWS is offline
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Well, one of Theo's tricks in Boston was to pay well over slot for guys that would fall due to signability issues, which, in theory is something the new draft rules will snuff out.

I'm not really sure if the Red Sox are doing the minor league thing that much more productively than other teams, they're just able to buy a better core of guys to build around. From your "why don't the Sox have anyone as good as Josh Reddick in the minors?" question, here's two players, try and figure out which is which...

Player A - Career .263/.307/.436 hitter, averages 23 HR, 73 RBI, 70 R, 21 D, 30 BB, and 127 K per 162 games played
Player B - Career .244/.300/.445 hitter, averages 23 HR, 66 RBI, 74 R, 29 D, 42 BB, 126 K per 162 games played.

Reddick is Player B. Dayan Viciedo is Player A. It seems like there's a bit of a case of "the grass is always greener on the other side," here.

What will make the Cubs rebuild work, whenever they decide to do it, is that they are still one of Major League baseball's money machines. They will eventually be able to pay for top-notch talent. They're not going to be able to compete as long as they pretend like they can rebuild the organization from bottom up. That basically never works in baseball.

But look at the teams they are on. Reddick led the A's in HR-RBI and hits. He is the guy opposing teams focus on. Dayan is hitting from the bottom 3rd of order which is a good thing for a young hitter.
On the other side, Reddick can play all outfield positions including CF which he did in Boston filling in for Ellsbury. Reddick is also a decent base-stealer.
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