Kenny Speaks

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by Noneck

And the reason it's simply not a facility that has any intention of coexisting in any sort of urban environment is Parking Lots and parking revenue.

Right, I'm fully aware of that, which is why it's not a neigborhood ballpark.

[Noneck]

Originally Posted by doublem23

Right, I'm fully aware of that, which is why it's not a neigborhood ballpark.

It is what it is but Milwaukee has shown that a stadium can draw in a city without a neighborhood atmosphere.

[kba]

Originally Posted by doublem23

I'd rather look at the actual features of the park and how it interacts with its supposed "neighborhood" to determine its value to that area. There is absolutely nothing about the Cell that says it is the product of sound urban design. It's a car-centric giant that dwarfs the neighborhood (what little is left that hasn't been destroyed for it's empty parking lots) and has absolutely stunted the growth of any sort of nearby urban growth. The Cell is located 10 minutes from 2 CTA stops, 1 Metra stop, and downtown via a 16-land superhighway, it should be the center of a dense, vibrant city neighborhood, instead it sits all alone on a quite stretch of road 6 months of the year because it's simply not a facility that has any intention of coexisting in any sort of urban environment.

To be fair, the designers of New Comiskey would have had to create an urban environment almost from scratch. Old Comiskey was almost as isolated from its neighborhood as USCF is. From the time it was built, the old ballpark was surrounded by parking lots, rail yards, Armour Square park, and the old Mack Truck factory. The only side where the old ballpark ever abutted homes and businesses was on 35th (where the current park stands and where McCuddy's used to be.) But as far back as I can remember, that was never what I'd call a vibrant neighborhood.

FWIW, I've read that the residents of Bridgeport used to like that the ballpark area was empty and desolate most of the year, because it helped form a buffer between them and the African-American neighborhoods east of Wentworth. I don't know if those attitudes still exist, but I suspect there would still be a lot of skepticism from neighbors if anyone tried to build "an urban environment" around USCF.

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by Noneck

It is what it is but Milwaukee has shown that a stadium can draw in a city without a neighborhood atmosphere.

Apples to oranges comparing Chicago to Milwaukee

[Noneck]

Originally Posted by doublem23

Apples to oranges comparing Chicago to Milwaukee

Not all people in chicago are the type that like the urban setting that you think is the key to success here. The ones that do, already have a place to go on the north side. Apples and oranges are here in the chicagoland area also, believe it or not.

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by Noneck

Not all people in chicago are the type that like the urban setting that you think is the key to success here. The ones that do, already have a place to go on the north side. Apples and oranges are here in the chicagoland area also, believe it or not.

This would be a good argument except that the team that does integrate itself as not only a member, but rather the focal point of its neighborhood easily draws 35,000+ a night for a team stuck in the ****ter while the team that plays to people who want to live in some kind of car-centric '50s fantasyland can't get more than 25,000 in house during a pennant race. Should be obvious which model is working better in Chicago. And I'm not arguing that the Sox need to completely tear up all the parking overnight (though, deep down, that is the dream) and turn Bridgeport into Wrigleyville south, but it's clear the Sox would be better off if they did SOMETHING to encourage growth around the park.

If the Sox don't want to be a productive member of the city, they'd probably be better served moving the team out to Naperville or Aurora and plowing over a couple acres of farmland. Seems silly to continuously push a park designed for suburbanites in the city and then wonder why people from either demographic don't warm up to it.

[Frater Perdurabo]

Honest question: Hypothetically, let's pretend JR desperately wanted to turn the parking lots into mixed-use mid-rise buildings with interior parking garages, first floor retail and restaurant and entertainment destinations, and upper level condos. Would the residents of Bridgeport, acting through their alderman, allow that to happen?

Put another way, does Bridgeport want "Wrigleyville South" around the Cell?

[Nellie_Fox]

Originally Posted by doublem23

...they'd probably be better served moving the team out to Naperville or Aurora and plowing over a couple acres of farmland.

Have you been to Aurora or Naperville lately? Not much open space left, and the traffic is practically 24 hour gridlock now.

[FielderJones]

Originally Posted by doublem23

This would be a good argument except that the team that does integrate itself as not only a member, but rather the focal point of its neighborhood easily draws 35,000+ a night for a team stuck in the ****ter while the team that plays to people who want to live in some kind of car-centric '50s fantasyland can't get more than 25,000 in house during a pennant race.

The team stuck in the ****er doesn't draw 35,000+ a night. The team sells 35,000+ tickets per game, many of which go unused.

One of the guys in my Sox season ticket group is also in a Cubs group. He said some days (and nights) they would be lucky to have 15,000 actually sitting in the seats.

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by FielderJones

The team stuck in the ****er doesn't draw 35,000+ a night. The team sells 35,000+ tickets per game, many of which go unused.

One of the guys in my Sox season ticket group is also in a Cubs group. He said some days (and nights) they would be lucky to have 15,000 actually sitting in the seats.

Hm, I didn't realize they didn't collect payment on tickets until when people show up on gameday.

Let's not pretend like there aren't plenty of nights the Sox announce attendance somewhere in the 20,000's and the reality is there's maybe 10,000 people there, tops, too.

[16th&State]

Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo

Honest question: Hypothetically, let's pretend JR desperately wanted to turn the parking lots into mixed-use mid-rise buildings with interior parking garages, first floor retail and restaurant and entertainment destinations, and upper level condos. Would the residents of Bridgeport, acting through their alderman, allow that to happen?

Put another way, does Bridgeport want "Wrigleyville South" around the Cell?

Does Bridgeport want "Wrigleyville South" around the Cell? No, probably not. But if we are talking about drawing the casual fan crowd and even converting them into actual Sox fans, then yes I think a sort of Wrigelyville South is what it would take. I have always held such a crazy idea. Between Bridgeport, Chinatown, & the South Loop, I think it could be sustainable. But it would require the Sox PR & marketing to actually give a damn about converting the casual Chicago baseball fan, both in becoming a far more fan friendly organization and in working diligently to erase misperceptions about the neighborhood. And I personally am not convinced that the Sox want to put for such an effort (as opposed to continually gouging their existing fan base...).

[Noneck]

Originally Posted by doublem23

This would be a good argument except that the team that does integrate itself as not only a member, but rather the focal point of its neighborhood easily draws 35,000+ a night for a team stuck in the ****ter while the team that plays to people who want to live in some kind of car-centric '50s fantasyland can't get more than 25,000 in house during a pennant race. Should be obvious which model is working better in Chicago. And I'm not arguing that the Sox need to completely tear up all the parking overnight (though, deep down, that is the dream) and turn Bridgeport into Wrigleyville south, but it's clear the Sox would be better off if they did SOMETHING to encourage growth around the park.

If the Sox don't want to be a productive member of the city, they'd probably be better served moving the team out to Naperville or Aurora and plowing over a couple acres of farmland. Seems silly to continuously push a park designed for suburbanites in the city and then wonder why people from either demographic don't warm up to it.

Yes they should be in the burbs but thats not going to happen till that sweetheart lease expires. For now my thinking is really try to get that non urban baseball fan. That starts with lowering parking rates. Another thing is that they should hold some sort of events during the off season so people will see the area is indeed safe. Is it possible to hold Sox fest there? Finally, This is coming from left field but is it possible to put a retractable roof on the stadium and enclose it? If possible I know it would have to be paid for by the Sox and not on our dime. I just think that competing with the urban stadium that is already here in Chicago is a losing proposition.

[Frater Perdurabo]

To what extent would it be theoretically possible for the Sox to shut down one of the parking lots for every Saturday home game during the summer months, and set up a series of different kinds of attractions: concerts, memorabilia fairs, kid-friendly road attractions, etc., that would draw different kinds of casual fans on each Saturday. Sort of "come for the (fill in the blank), stay for the game" promotion.

[Brian26]

Originally Posted by 16th&State

Between Bridgeport, Chinatown, & the South Loop, I think it could be sustainable. But it would require the Sox PR & marketing to actually give a damn about converting the casual Chicago baseball fan, both in becoming a far more fan friendly organization and in working diligently to erase misperceptions about the neighborhood. And I personally am not convinced that the Sox want to put for such an effort (as opposed to continually gouging their existing fan base...).

Wrigleyville works because there are bars, restaurants and apartments literally within a few hundred feet of the ballpark. There's too big of a disconnect between the Cell and the rest of Armour Square/Bridgeport, let alone the South Loop where you have to get on a train to get there. Chinatown is a non-factor.

[gosox41]

Originally Posted by LITTLE NELL

The heat did not stop other teams from drawing 3 million.
We can talk about this until we are blue in the face, the fans did not come out this year because they rebelled against the high ticket prices to go along with the dynamic pricing BS.

I'm just curious as I haven't seen the rankings, but where do the Sox ticket prices rank? Also, are they the only team in baseball to have dynamic pricing?


Bob