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  #16  
Old 10-07-2012, 03:16 PM
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ChiSoxGirl ChiSoxGirl is offline
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I ♥ Robin and couldn't possibly be more thrilled about this news.
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  #17  
Old 10-07-2012, 11:28 PM
CoopaLoop CoopaLoop is offline
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Another year of bunts!
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  #18  
Old 10-08-2012, 07:39 AM
Bucky F. Dent Bucky F. Dent is offline
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We were never up by more than three and a half games. How that constitutes a massive collapse of biblical proportions is really beyond my simple understanding.
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  #19  
Old 10-08-2012, 08:32 AM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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Good move to bring everyone back, but I hope Don Cooper got a not so subtle nudge to let Robin make the calls with the pitchers.

Pitching management was a mess all season. Yes, there were injuries, but starters and relievers alike were jumbled around all year with nobody getting consistent rest and/or roles.
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  #20  
Old 10-08-2012, 08:54 AM
SCCWS SCCWS is offline
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The media will tell us that Don Cooper is a highly rated pitching coach. But I struggle to list what pitchers have developed under Cooper to the point where they are considered top major league pitchers. I do think Cooper gets some credit for Buehrle's development even though he had a great year before Cooper became the pitching coach. But certainly Jenks, Floyd and Thornton are not top pitchers. I can't think of any pitchers that Coop developed that was traded or signed elsewhere. Gio obviously developed after he left. There must be some top pitcher that came up and developed under Coop but I can't think of one
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  #21  
Old 10-08-2012, 10:56 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucky F. Dent View Post
We were never up by more than three and a half games. How that constitutes a massive collapse of biblical proportions is really beyond my simple understanding.
Well Bucky they did go 4-11 in their final 15 games to lose a three game lead with slightly over two weeks remaining.

The collapse might not be of biblical proportions but it was bad...very bad. Perhaps you can suggest another adjective to use to describe it?

Lip
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  #22  
Old 10-08-2012, 11:03 AM
johnny bench johnny bench is offline
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I have no idea if the players like Ventura or not, but I hope they like playing for him because he is getting more out of them than the recent past. I'm glad that the Sox want Ventura back. It's remarkable how much better that this 2012 team played in comparison to the largely similar 2011 squad. Hitting, pitching and fielding are all markedly improved. And, it seems pretty clear that the failings of this year's team are due more to lack of depth in talent at all 25 roster spots than lack of performance by the team. We have a proven manager and field management team going into next year. Now the attention shifts from the dugout to the front office.
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  #23  
Old 10-08-2012, 12:33 PM
Tragg Tragg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Well Bucky they did go 4-11 in their final 15 games to lose a three game lead with slightly over two weeks remaining.

The collapse might not be of biblical proportions but it was bad...very bad. Perhaps you can suggest another adjective to use to describe it?

Lip
Plus, three of the series losses were to poor, poor teams.
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  #24  
Old 10-08-2012, 02:11 PM
Konerko05 Konerko05 is offline
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Originally Posted by SCCWS View Post
The media will tell us that Don Cooper is a highly rated pitching coach. But I struggle to list what pitchers have developed under Cooper to the point where they are considered top major league pitchers. I do think Cooper gets some credit for Buehrle's development even though he had a great year before Cooper became the pitching coach. But certainly Jenks, Floyd and Thornton are not top pitchers. I can't think of any pitchers that Coop developed that was traded or signed elsewhere. Gio obviously developed after he left. There must be some top pitcher that came up and developed under Coop but I can't think of one
Chris Sale.

You can not just magically turn average to slightly above average talent into a top tier pitcher. He generally gets more productivity out of pitching talent than most pitching coaches.

Jenks was a top tier closer for a few years before his arm and body could no longer withstand throwing 100mph with a power curveball (among other things).
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  #25  
Old 10-08-2012, 02:23 PM
kobo kobo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCCWS View Post
The media will tell us that Don Cooper is a highly rated pitching coach. But I struggle to list what pitchers have developed under Cooper to the point where they are considered top major league pitchers. I do think Cooper gets some credit for Buehrle's development even though he had a great year before Cooper became the pitching coach. But certainly Jenks, Floyd and Thornton are not top pitchers. I can't think of any pitchers that Coop developed that was traded or signed elsewhere. Gio obviously developed after he left. There must be some top pitcher that came up and developed under Coop but I can't think of one
Who cares what a pitcher does once he leaves the organization? What matters is what happens with that pitcher while he's here and working with Cooper. For whatever reason Cooper seems to be able to get the most out of guys when they are here. Why are you basing the success of Cooper on whether a pitcher is considered a top pitcher? It's not his job to make every pitcher the best in the game, it's his job to maximize that pitcher's talent/ability to help the team. In my opinion, Cooper has done that more often than not.
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  #26  
Old 10-08-2012, 03:26 PM
amsteel amsteel is offline
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All he had to do this year was not be Ozzie.

Next year the team's on field performance will be his performance metric.
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  #27  
Old 10-08-2012, 03:28 PM
TDog TDog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
I'm certainly not advocating 'firing' Robin by any means but to the points raised about Sox collapses and firings, I can think of two right off the top of my head:

1967 = Stanky... fired in May of 1968.
2003 = Manuel... fired in the off season.

Lip
To build on Daver's point, Eddie Stanky's firing came in June of 1968, 79 games into the season with the White Sox 18.5 games out of first, ninth in the 10-team American League in the last year before divisional play. Stanky wasn't fired after the collapse of 1967, which involved losing the last five games. He wasn't fired in April after the Sox lost their first 10 games of 1968. It has been said that Stanky didn't relate well to black players. I don't know that that is documented. That may be an assumption people have made based on Stanky being one of the Dodgers who started a petition to keep Jackie Robinson off of the team.

The Sox never had a big lead in either 1967 or 2012. They never pulled away. The most notable collapses in baseball were the 1951 Dodgers (up 13 on August 11), 1969 Cubs (up 9 on August 16), 1964 Phillies (up 6.5 with 12 to play) and the 2012 Rangers (up 5 with 9 to play) did not fire their managers in the offseason.

Charlie Dressen went on to win pennants with the Dodgers in 1952 and 1953 after Leo Durocher's Giants beat him out in 1951. Durocher was midway through his 1972 season with before the his Cubs tenure reached critical mass (as with Guillen ifor the 2011 White Sox). Gene Mauch wasn't fired by the Phillies until 1968. And I don't see the Rangers firing Ron Washington anytime soon.

It's true that Washington went to the World Series for two straight years, and lost to teams the public underestimated. But Durocher and Mauch were managing long suffering teams that seemed to miss their window. Dressen was a rookie manager for a team that had never won a World Series.

There is no reason to blame Ventura for this year's White Sox collapse, blowing that three game lead with 15 to go.

And, really, I didn't see Ventura being outmaneauvered by other managers. There was a criticism from the start that he went too long with his starting pitchers, but I always believed that was to save the rookiie-heavy bullpen. I think he was good at getting the matchups he wanted. In the end, the players didn't execute. The wasted opportunities over the last two weeks was the result of players not executing. The problem wasn't with players bunting the go-ahead run to third where he could score on a fly ball, the problem was hitters striking out with the runner on third and not scoring him.

I don't think there is any problem with the manager and coaching staff, although the third-base coach did seem to be at the center of a lot of failures in September. I don't think there was anything Ventura could do differently with the pitching staff to keep pitching from running out of gas in late September. For example, the problem wasn't that Adam Dunn was hitting third, it was that he was in the lineup at all. If you have an offense that hits a lot of home runs, that strikes out a lot and doesn't hit for a high batting average, as opposed to an offense that makes solid, consistent line-drive contact, your offense is vulnerable to being shut down. Hitting isn't about OPS, its about hitting.
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  #28  
Old 10-08-2012, 06:54 PM
SCCWS SCCWS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kobo View Post
Who cares what a pitcher does once he leaves the organization? What matters is what happens with that pitcher while he's here and working with Cooper. For whatever reason Cooper seems to be able to get the most out of guys when they are here. Why are you basing the success of Cooper on whether a pitcher is considered a top pitcher? It's not his job to make every pitcher the best in the game, it's his job to maximize that pitcher's talent/ability to help the team. In my opinion, Cooper has done that more often than not.
My point was that there is not a pitcher on this staff that Coop can claim as an example of someone he has developed into a good pitcher. I brought up other teams because some coaches develop pitchers only to see them sign big contracts elsewhere. During his Chicago tenure the Sox have finished in AL ERA: 4 ( 2003)-12-2-10-12-6-2-8-8-9-. So during the Cooper years the White Sox have on average finished as the 7th best team in the league ERA wise. That is average.
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  #29  
Old 10-08-2012, 07:21 PM
slavko slavko is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCCWS View Post
My point was that there is not a pitcher on this staff that Coop can claim as an example of someone he has developed into a good pitcher. I brought up other teams because some coaches develop pitchers only to see them sign big contracts elsewhere. During his Chicago tenure the Sox have finished in AL ERA: 4 ( 2003)-12-2-10-12-6-2-8-8-9-. So during the Cooper years the White Sox have on average finished as the 7th best team in the league ERA wise. That is average.
This would be easier to accept if we had a way of equalizing for the ballpark factor. We play in a smallish home stadium. Don't misread me, I think Coop's a halo guy.
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  #30  
Old 10-09-2012, 07:28 AM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
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Originally Posted by slavko View Post
This would be easier to accept if we had a way of equalizing for the ballpark factor. We play in a smallish home stadium. Don't misread me, I think Coop's a halo guy.
USCF has been a neutral park 2009-2011.
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