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  #91  
Old 10-05-2012, 12:06 PM
russ99 russ99 is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Except that US Cellular Field's not a neighborhood ballpark, it just happens to be located in Bridgeport, but it would look and feel exactly the same if it were located in the South Loop, in Addison, or just about anywhere else. There's no thriving neighborhood around it, in fact, it's pretty easy to argue that other than the Dan Ryan, Sox Park is the biggest blight on the neighborhood.

Wrigley is a neighborhood ballpark in that it's an essential and organic part of Wrigleyville. U.S. Cellular Field looks like it was just arbitrarily dropped out of the sky. It doesn't even line up with the street grid.
I'd like to think that a neighborhood is more than just a grid of lots that spread aprox. 4-5 square blocks.

Sure the long train underpass, Armour Square Park and the Ryan give the Cell a natural barrier from the surrounding neighborhood, but I've had a blast going to Bridgeport after the games, and I've also had fun at the bars north of the Cell and Armour Square Park.

The issue is more that fans either don't know that there's something past those barriers, or fear due to the old ridiculous stereotypes.
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  #92  
Old 10-05-2012, 12:16 PM
hawkjt hawkjt is offline
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Originally Posted by russ99 View Post
I'd like to think that a neighborhood is more than just a grid of lots that spread aprox. 4-5 square blocks.

Sure the long train underpass, Armour Square Park and the Ryan give the Cell a natural barrier from the surrounding neighborhood, but I've had a blast going to Bridgeport after the games, and I've also had fun at the bars north of the Cell and Armour Square Park.

The issue is more that fans either don't know that there's something past those barriers, or fear due to the old ridiculous stereotypes.

I am convinced that it is going to take decades to overcome the misperceptions and biases....shame.
I do think if the economy had not had the historically bad flameout in 2008, it could have been further along by now.

I do think in hindsight,that a south loop park could have weathered the recession better,and had a better base of corporate clients with the proximaty to downtown... even stealing some away from the Cubs.
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  #93  
Old 10-05-2012, 12:40 PM
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tebman tebman is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Except that US Cellular Field's not a neighborhood ballpark, it just happens to be located in Bridgeport, but it would look and feel exactly the same if it were located in the South Loop, in Addison, or just about anywhere else. There's no thriving neighborhood around it, in fact, it's pretty easy to argue that other than the Dan Ryan, Sox Park is the biggest blight on the neighborhood.

Wrigley is a neighborhood ballpark in that it's an essential and organic part of Wrigleyville. U.S. Cellular Field looks like it was just arbitrarily dropped out of the sky. It doesn't even line up with the street grid.
The opportunity lost by the White Sox in 1988 is what I lament. Because of the circumstances surrounding the project and the Sox front office's clumsiness, they took the suburban greenfield design and dropped it on 35th Street. With a little more time the architects could have reshaped it to fit the neighborhood.

And it was a neighborhood, or at least used to be, before the new park was built. Check out the historicaerials.com image at the link and you can see Comiskey Park in the Armour Square neighborhood in 1952. Today you'd call it "mixed-use" because it was a collection of residential and light industrial buildings. Obviously things changed over the years with the construction of the Dan Ryan and the expansion of the Sox parking lots, but when a whole new development is planned in cooperation with the city and the state, the means exist to create an environment and not just a building.

But it didn't work out that way. Since then the Sox have made changes to the park that do enhance its quality. The construction of the Bacardi restaurant and the Sports Depot store are more steps in that direction. The near South Side and Bridgeport continue to see improvement, which suggests to me that the Sox should be secure there for a long time. I'd like to think I'll still be able to catch games on 35th Street years from now when I'm in my dotage and shaking my gnarled fist at Joe West's grandson.
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  #94  
Old 10-05-2012, 07:35 PM
joegraz joegraz is offline
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I think Sox fans might have figured this out before fans in other cities, it's better to sit home and watch the overpaid players on TV instead of supporting their obscene salaries with the grocery money.
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  #95  
Old 10-06-2012, 09:01 AM
Thome25 Thome25 is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
Except that US Cellular Field's not a neighborhood ballpark, it just happens to be located in Bridgeport, but it would look and feel exactly the same if it were located in the South Loop, in Addison, or just about anywhere else. There's no thriving neighborhood around it, in fact, it's pretty easy to argue that other than the Dan Ryan, Sox Park is the biggest blight on the neighborhood.

Wrigley is a neighborhood ballpark in that it's an essential and organic part of Wrigleyville. U.S. Cellular Field looks like it was just arbitrarily dropped out of the sky. It doesn't even line up with the street grid.
This is your opinion and can't be stated as fact. Just because you personally think that because it doesn't integrate with Bridgeport and Armour Square as well as Wrigley does with it's surroundings doesn't magically mean it isn't in a neighborhood.

Is US Cellular Field in a retail area?

Is it in an industrial area?

Is it downtown?

No to all three do you say?

It is in the Armour Square neighborhood and is therefore a neighborhood ballpark.
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  #96  
Old 10-06-2012, 09:54 AM
Golden Sox Golden Sox is online now
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  #97  
Old 10-06-2012, 10:26 AM
16th&State 16th&State is offline
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Originally Posted by Thome25 View Post
This your opinion and can't be stated as fact. Just because you personally think that because it doesn't integrate with Bridgeport and Armour Square as well as Wrigley does with it's surroundings doesn't magically mean it isn't in a neighborhood.

Is US Cellular Field in a retail area?

Is it in an industrial area?

Is it downtown?

No to all three do you say?

It is in the Armour Square neighborhood and is therefore a neighborhood ballpark.
And just because US Cellular isn't located in a suburban green field or in former empty lot downtown doesn't make it a neighborhood ballpark either. Yes, US Cellular is physically located in a neighborhood. But is it connected with or intertwined within said neighborhood? Not exactly. Not at all really. There is literally nothing but parking lots, train tracks, and expressways in a 2 block radius. Nothing brings people to 35th & Shields when games aren't being played. It might as well be a brownfield on off-days. And I say that as a diehard who moved to Bridgeport so I could live in the same 'neighborhood' that the Sox play. US Cellular is is hardly the epicenter of Bridgeport/Armour Square the way Wrigley is for Wrigleyville. So calling it a neighborhood ballpark is a bit idealistic and hardly grounded in any sort of true meaning of what Neighborhood ballparks were. Yes I am merely opining, but sadly neighborhood ballparks are a thing of the past. And as much as I love my Sox and what the US Cellular rehab brought Sox fans, the Cell is still NOT a neighborhood ballpark and is sadly just a ballpark located in a neighborhood outside of downtown…
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  #98  
Old 10-06-2012, 10:45 AM
SI1020 SI1020 is offline
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Originally Posted by Thome25 View Post
It is in the Armour Square neighborhood and is therefore a neighborhood ballpark.
Thanks for posting the correct location of the park.
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  #99  
Old 10-06-2012, 11:28 AM
Thome25 Thome25 is offline
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Originally Posted by SI1020 View Post
Thanks for posting the correct location of the park.
No problem.

US Cellular Field in Bridgeport is a very common misconception among the fans and media.

The Cell is in Armour Square.

Last edited by Thome25; 10-06-2012 at 11:33 AM.
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  #100  
Old 10-06-2012, 11:32 AM
Thome25 Thome25 is offline
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Originally Posted by 16th&State View Post
And just because US Cellular isn't located in a suburban green field or in former empty lot downtown doesn't make it a neighborhood ballpark either. Yes, US Cellular is physically located in a neighborhood. But is it connected with or intertwined within said neighborhood? Not exactly. Not at all really. There is literally nothing but parking lots, train tracks, and expressways in a 2 block radius. Nothing brings people to 35th & Shields when games aren't being played. It might as well be a brownfield on off-days. And I say that as a diehard who moved to Bridgeport so I could live in the same 'neighborhood' that the Sox play. US Cellular is is hardly the epicenter of Bridgeport/Armour Square the way Wrigley is for Wrigleyville. So calling it a neighborhood ballpark is a bit idealistic and hardly grounded in any sort of true meaning of what Neighborhood ballparks were. Yes I am merely opining, but sadly neighborhood ballparks are a thing of the past. And as much as I love my Sox and what the US Cellular rehab brought Sox fans, the Cell is still NOT a neighborhood ballpark and is sadly just a ballpark located in a neighborhood outside of downtown…
Using Wrigley Field as an example of what is and isn't a neighborhood ballpark is a HORRIBLE one.

Wrigley Field wasn't "intertwined" with it's neighborhood until the last 25-30 years or so.

Chicken before the egg my friend. Before it became the Tribune conglomerate cash cow (and everything subsequently started growing and popping up around it) It was just another building in the neighborhood just like The Cell is now.

Having a theme-park type atmosphere around the park (and subsequently making it the epicenter of the area) is not a prerequisite for a true neighborhood ballpark.

Bottom line is, US Cellular Field is in the Armour Square Neighborhood and is by default a "neighborhood ballpark".

The only thing (other than someone's opinion) that can change that is if someone magically scooped up The Cell and placed it somewhere other than a neighborhood.

And before someone else implies that The Cell is sealed off from it's neighborhood as if it had the Berlin Wall around it, there's a public park and residential houses approx two blocks (or less) in every direction around it.

Last edited by Thome25; 10-06-2012 at 11:59 AM.
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  #101  
Old 10-06-2012, 12:34 PM
16th&State 16th&State is offline
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Originally Posted by Thome25 View Post
Using Wrigley Field as an example of what is and isn't a neighborhood ballpark is a HORRIBLE one.

Wrigley Field wasn't "intertwined" with it's neighborhood until the last 25-30 years or so.

Chicken before the egg my friend. Before it became the Tribune conglomerate cash cow (and everything subsequently started growing and popping up around it) It was just another building in the neighborhood just like The Cell is now.

Having a theme-park type atmosphere around the park (and subsequently making it the epicenter of the area) is not a prerequisite for a true neighborhood ballpark.

Bottom line is, US Cellular Field is in the Armour Square Neighborhood and is by default a "neighborhood ballpark".

The only thing (other than someone's opinion) that can change that is if someone magically scooped up The Cell and placed it somewhere other than a neighborhood.

And before someone else implies that The Cell is sealed off from it's neighborhood as if it had the Berlin Wall around it, there's a public park and residential houses approx two blocks (or less) in every direction around it.
I think we are arguing differing ideas here. Yes, US Cellular is physically located in the Armour Square Community Area of Chicago and is by default a ballpark in a neighborhood. But is the Loop a neighborhood? Or River North? or the West Loop? By your definition even a downtown park would be a neighborhood ballpark because it is technically in a neighborhood. All I'm saying is that there is more to it than that. Perhaps i'm being overly idealistic and romanticizing times past. But to me as a Bridgeport resident, US Cellular hardly feels like a part of the neighborhood (Bridgeport or Armour Square) because of the distinct physical separation from the neighborhoods in its proximity, despite it being mere blocks from a public park and residential blocks to the north.

[And yes Wrigley is a HORRIBLE example and I very aware of the Tribune Co's conglomerate cash cow and how for 30 years it propagandized a fan base into swarming a 'historic' ballpark not even built for the team that resides there to watch rather mediocre (at best) to rather pathetic 'Major' league baseball...]
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  #102  
Old 10-06-2012, 02:49 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
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The Cell is in a "neighborhood" and in close proximity to residences and parks, but it is not in close proximity to many other different types of retail, restaurant and entertainment destinations that otherwise draw lots of people throughout the year. OTOH, many of those types of destinations do exist right around the Urinal and they do draw people throughout the year. That's the crucial difference.
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  #103  
Old 10-09-2012, 10:42 AM
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This notion that just because the Cell happens to be in Bridgeport/Armour Square/wherever, THUS it has to be a neighborhood park is just silly. So, the only requirement is that the park be on a piece of land inside an arbitarily named neighborhood? What park doesn't qualify as a neighborhood park under this guide, unless, you think there's a bunch of MLB teams playing their home games in the middle of unihabitable desert...

I'd rather look at the actual features of the park and how it interacts with its supposed "neighborhood" to determine its value to that area. There is absolutely nothing about the Cell that says it is the product of sound urban design. It's a car-centric giant that dwarfs the neighborhood (what little is left that hasn't been destroyed for it's empty parking lots) and has absolutely stunted the growth of any sort of nearby urban growth. The Cell is located 10 minutes from 2 CTA stops, 1 Metra stop, and downtown via a 16-land superhighway, it should be the center of a dense, vibrant city neighborhood, instead it sits all alone on a quite stretch of road 6 months of the year because it's simply not a facility that has any intention of coexisting in any sort of urban environment.
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  #104  
Old 10-09-2012, 11:55 AM
PalehosePlanet PalehosePlanet is offline
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Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
This notion that just because the Cell happens to be in Bridgeport/Armour Square/wherever, THUS it has to be a neighborhood park is just silly. So, the only requirement is that the park be on a piece of land inside an arbitarily named neighborhood? What park doesn't qualify as a neighborhood park under this guide, unless, you think there's a bunch of MLB teams playing their home games in the middle of unihabitable desert...

I'd rather look at the actual features of the park and how it interacts with its supposed "neighborhood" to determine its value to that area. There is absolutely nothing about the Cell that says it is the product of sound urban design. It's a car-centric giant that dwarfs the neighborhood (what little is left that hasn't been destroyed for it's empty parking lots) and has absolutely stunted the growth of any sort of nearby urban growth. The Cell is located 10 minutes from 2 CTA stops, 1 Metra stop, and downtown via a 16-land superhighway, it should be the center of a dense, vibrant city neighborhood, instead it sits all alone on a quite stretch of road 6 months of the year because it's simply not a facility that has any intention of coexisting in any sort of urban environment.
I don't know, you guys both make good points. But to me, the fact that there are residential homes right on the other side of the tracks, down 36th St., 37th St., etc within a 100 yards of the actual stadium makes it a neighborhood park. I've been to a bunch of different stadiums that were basically surrounded by nothing for about a mile or more (Anaheim, LA, KC, etc...) I always walk through the Bridgeport neighborhood, from lot F down 37th St. to Wallace, walk over to Grandstand, and all around are people wearing Sox gear heading to the game or milling around. Sure the stadium would be more integrated into the hood if there were no tracks to the west, but it doesn't make it isolated, IMO.
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  #105  
Old 10-09-2012, 12:16 PM
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The Cell is located 10 minutes from 2 CTA stops, 1 Metra stop, and downtown via a 16-land superhighway, it should be the center of a dense, vibrant city neighborhood, instead it sits all alone on a quite stretch of road 6 months of the year because it's simply not a facility that has any intention of coexisting in any sort of urban environment.

And the reason it's simply not a facility that has any intention of coexisting in any sort of urban environment is Parking Lots and parking revenue.
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