To What Degree Do the White Sox Need a COMPLETE Overhaul?

[KyWhiSoxFan]

Originally Posted by kittle42

It's a lot easier to get people to come out to watch a player than a manager, I'd think.

Ozzie will dispute that. In his mind, they all came to see him.

[SephClone89]

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

I guess it's the circle I keep. There certainly isn't anything "cool" about the Cubs or Wrigleyville. I'd say it's about as anti-cool, fratboy, yuppie as it gets. Granted this is coming from art school/bike messenger. Unfortunately, the Bohemian/Hipster types tend not to give a **** about sports.

In general, yes, but I think if a hipster is going to like any sport it might be baseball (and soccer).

[soxtalker]

Originally Posted by TomBradley72

In looking at the status of this team and overall organization as we close out a disappointing 2012- to what degree do you think it's time for a significant overhaul across the board (not just on the playing field)?

1. Major league roster- expensive free agent contracts looming for Peavy, Youkilis and AJ (without any real help in the farm system to replace them)- and saddled with Adam Dunn for another 2 years.
2. Farm System- some good talent that helped the 2012 team (young pitching especially)- but I don't see alot of guys that could potentially help in 2013 where we need the help.
3. Marketing- After a strong start- I think Brooks Boyer is running out of gas- if you can't draw 2 million when you spend most of the season you're in 1st place and the cross town team is losing 100 games- I think marketing is accountable. "Dynamic pricing", worn out promotions like Mullett Night, etc., mediocre TV and newspaper advertising, etc.- they seem to really have lost their way in this area.
4. TV & Radio Announcers- IMHO Farmer & DJ are unlistenable- I only listen when I need a score- but I used to like having the radio on in the background while doing other things during the season- but not with these 2- I think both should be dumped. On the TV side- I'm more of a Hawk fan than most- but he showed a noticable decline this season, and the chemistry just isn't there with Stone.

I think this team needs some bold, offseason changes to get back on track- but there's no real evidence that JR has the inclination or the ability to execute aggressive changes quickly.

Interesting thread. I'm late to commenting, but I think I've read most posts. Using the format of the starting post, here are a few thoughts.
[*] Major league roster -- KW made a lot of changes during the season, trying to adjust to the injuries, etc. What struck me all along was that virtually all of those changes were designed to have minimal impact beyond this season. The moves just felt different than in the past. Add in the expiring contracts of veterans like Peavy and AJ. It's almost like they have been setting this up for a big change. Now, they've signed players that were almost out the door in the past -- Konerko, AJ, Buerhle -- and they could do so again, though I won't be surprised if they let AJ and Peavy leave.

But the overall point is that it almost feels like they may have been planning this transition for awhile. It's not just Hahn's promotion.
[*] Minor league system -- Obviously, they are ranked low for a reason. And a few of the top draft picks have moved up to the major league club immediately. But I think that they've been reorganizing this for a couple of years. And it was nice to see Charlotte have a great season. (They lost out in the playoffs, but I'm guessing that was largely due to the Sox needing many of the players.)
[*] Marketing -- I think that the economy -- and its impact on baseball attendance -- turned out to be much worse than they anticipated. It's probably true for many teams in baseball.

I certainly wasn't happy with (and didn't understand) having one of the top ticket costs, though, as many have pointed out, there are ways to get access to lower prices. One would think that dynamic pricing would enable that, but it doesn't sound like it worked that way. But I'd give the dynamic pricing a couple of years to settle out. All of baseball is trying it, and the teams are going to learn from each other.
[*] TV & Radio Announcers -- Certainly, Stone and Hawk won't be back together -- maybe neither. But it just feels like Hawk is done. It's not just the problems during the end-of-season skid. I thought we were doing pretty well when he had the meltdown earlier in the season to which Selig took exception. Maybe they can figure a way to transition him into retirement.

I've been a fan for a long time (about 50 years), so I've seen a lot of good and bad teams and moments. I guess that I'm not overly pessimistic, but, then again, I'm not expecting a WS next year either.

[palehozenychicty]

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

Nobody's going to games anyway. It's obviously not just about wins. This team is stale.

In a career year, AJ's OPS is .750 with bad pitch calling and worse defense.

This is what some people don't seem to get. Nobody's going when the team wins 86 games, which is why the management keeps building a team with that level of TALENT.

They're not going to make a serious effort to add talent for a 10-15 game improvement. Right now, they are as flat a franchise as you can find in the game.

[Zakath]

People need to remember that this team was predicted to win 67 games, and will end up with 84-86 wins, finishing second to a team that was supposed to run away and hide from everyone else.

Do we need an overhaul? Yes. Major? Iffy. Total? No.

Yes, our "core" is getting long in the tooth. However, people seem to forget that at one point this season, PK was flirting with .400, and will end up pretty close to, if not over, .300, even with an injured hand.

AJ had never hit more than 18 HR a season; he's sitting at 27. He's a lifetime .284/.324/.753 hitter. Does anyone think that Flowers, who is a good defensive catcher but needs a lot of work at the plate, is going to match this magically next season? With more AB, yes, he's not going to strike out 54 times in 133 AB's, but he's not going to be that great of a hitter, especially for average.

Talk about trading Rios is unbelievably dumb. This actually isn't a career year for him; 2011 was so bad that it MAKES 2012 look like a career year. Even with the disaster that was 2011, he's a .278/.324/.768 lifetime hitter. He's going to end up this year at just over .300 with an OPS of around .850.

As others mentioned, what we need is offensive depth, as well as some speed. We will be last in the majors in doubles this season, 3rd in HR, and middle-of-the-pack in average and OBP. Despite Dunn's high number of K's (not all of which were bad, as many came in positions where a K was no worse than a groundout or a flyout), we are still 13th in MLB in K's (first being fewest), but 22nd in drawing walks. We're living and dying by the long ball, and we need some singles and doubles hitters.

[kobo]

Originally Posted by palehozenychicty

This is what some people don't seem to get. Nobody's going when the team wins 86 games, which is why the management keeps building a team with that level of TALENT.

They're not going to make a serious effort to add talent for a 10-15 game improvement. Right now, they are as flat a franchise as you can find in the game.

It's the "we play to win this season" mentality that has existed for the better part of KW's tenure. Some folks like this approach. I'm not a fan. It does not lead to sustained success. It does not instill any type of hope or optimism. Seeing as how the Sox very rarely sign an impact FA what excitement is the club generating about its own product? Sure, they can conceivably go for it every season and think fans will buy into that line of thinking but the results are showing us people aren't doing that. Add in the September failures of this team, which isn't going unnoticed by casual fans by the way, and there just isn't much hope or optimism when it comes to White Sox baseball.

In all honesty, I don't think anything is really going to change until this current ownership group decides to sell the team. Until that happens, it's going to be more of the same year in and year out. They had a chance to really make a difference in this town after 05 and they blew it. I know they added Thome after that season and then blew it again in September, but it seems like since then they've been ok just being average and trying to make a move here and there that just might get them back in the playoffs.

[soxtalker]

Originally Posted by Zakath

AJ had never hit more than 18 HR a season; he's sitting at 27. He's a lifetime .284/.324/.753 hitter. Does anyone think that Flowers, who is a good defensive catcher but needs a lot of work at the plate, is going to match this magically next season? With more AB, yes, he's not going to strike out 54 times in 133 AB's, but he's not going to be that great of a hitter, especially for average.

The question may be what other teams want to pay him and, perhaps more important, for how long. It's a bit like the Buerhle situation last year. AJ has been quite durable, but he is getting up in years. I don't know the numbers, but I have the impression that Ventura was sitting him a bit more than Ozzie did in previous years.

[kobo]

Originally Posted by soxtalker

The question may be what other teams want to pay him and, perhaps more important, for how long. It's a bit like the Buerhle situation last year. AJ has been quite durable, but he is getting up in years. I don't know the numbers, but I have the impression that Ventura was sitting him a bit more than Ozzie did in previous years.

Nope. AJ started 121 games this year, compared to 112 last year. The 121 starts is normal for him over the course of his career.

[SephClone89]

Originally Posted by kobo

Nope. AJ started 121 games this year, compared to 112 last year. The 121 starts is normal for him over the course of his career.

I just realize this, but damn did I miss Ramon Castro this year.

[palehozenychicty]

Originally Posted by kobo

It's the "we play to win this season" mentality that has existed for the better part of KW's tenure. Some folks like this approach. I'm not a fan. It does not lead to sustained success. It does not instill any type of hope or optimism. Seeing as how the Sox very rarely sign an impact FA what excitement is the club generating about its own product? Sure, they can conceivably go for it every season and think fans will buy into that line of thinking but the results are showing us people aren't doing that. Add in the September failures of this team, which isn't going unnoticed by casual fans by the way, and there just isn't much hope or optimism when it comes to White Sox baseball.

In all honesty, I don't think anything is really going to change until this current ownership group decides to sell the team. Until that happens, it's going to be more of the same year in and year out. They had a chance to really make a difference in this town after 05 and they blew it. I know they added Thome after that season and then blew it again in September, but it seems like since then they've been ok just being average and trying to make a move here and there that just might get them back in the playoffs.

Exactly. The franchise have seen revenue increases, but the team is still inconsistent as ever. The WS win looks good, but the management has struck out.

[Lip Man 1]

Originally Posted by palehozenychicty

This is what some people don't seem to get. Nobody's going when the team wins 86 games, which is why the management keeps building a team with that level of TALENT.

They're not going to make a serious effort to add talent for a 10-15 game improvement. Right now, they are as flat a franchise as you can find in the game.

Pale: This stat floored me. Honestly I wasn't expecting this...I thought it would be better given that they've had 19 winning years.

In the 32 years that current ownership has run the White Sox the average yearly record is:

81.54 wins
76.39 losses

(Remember games were wiped out by the labor impasses in 1981, 1994 and they got a late start in 1995, that's why the numbers don't add up exactly to 81-81.)

Lip

[palehozenychicty]

Originally Posted by Lip Man 1

Pale: This stat floored me. Honestly I wasn't expecting this...I thought it would be better given that they've had 19 winning years.

In the 32 years that current ownership has run the White Sox the average yearly record is:

81.54 wins
76.39 losses

(Remember games were wiped out by the labor impasses in 1981, 1994 and they got a late start in 1995, that's why the numbers don't add up exactly to 81-81.)

Lip

Yeah. It's sad, but the truth. As long as they are a decent team and attendance with programming metrics stay still, management is fine with it.

They didn't invest heavily in scouting/development after winning the title seven years ago. They won't do it now with the increased checks. That strategy would have gotten them some depth to win a few of those pennant races.

[gosox41]

Originally Posted by TomBradley72

In looking at the status of this team and overall organization as we close out a disappointing 2012- to what degree do you think it's time for a significant overhaul across the board (not just on the playing field)?

1. Major league roster- expensive free agent contracts looming for Peavy, Youkilis and AJ (without any real help in the farm system to replace them)- and saddled with Adam Dunn for another 2 years.
2. Farm System- some good talent that helped the 2012 team (young pitching especially)- but I don't see alot of guys that could potentially help in 2013 where we need the help.
3. Marketing- After a strong start- I think Brooks Boyer is running out of gas- if you can't draw 2 million when you spend most of the season you're in 1st place and the cross town team is losing 100 games- I think marketing is accountable. "Dynamic pricing", worn out promotions like Mullett Night, etc., mediocre TV and newspaper advertising, etc.- they seem to really have lost their way in this area.
4. TV & Radio Announcers- IMHO Farmer & DJ are unlistenable- I only listen when I need a score- but I used to like having the radio on in the background while doing other things during the season- but not with these 2- I think both should be dumped. On the TV side- I'm more of a Hawk fan than most- but he showed a noticable decline this season, and the chemistry just isn't there with Stone.

I think this team needs some bold, offseason changes to get back on track- but there's no real evidence that JR has the inclination or the ability to execute aggressive changes quickly.

For marketing, it's easy to market a WS champ. The premium pricing turned out to be a flop. On the flipside, can anyone market this team enough so it will increase attendance? Maybe the question is: What is keeping Sox fans away form the ballpark?

In terms of broadcasting, I'd love to see Hawk go, but my guess is Stone will leave. I like Ed and DJ. Not great. But they have some good insight and entertain me a lot more than Hawk does.


Bob

[Lip Man 1]

Gosox:

There have been numerous threads debating the reasons for the Sox attendance issues here at WSI the past week. To my mind 95% of the comments made have some validity to them.

I have to think Brooks, JR and company are aware of those same stated reasons.

Lip

[Johnny Mostil]

Originally Posted by Lip Man 1

Pale: This stat floored me. Honestly I wasn't expecting this...I thought it would be better given that they've had 19 winning years.

In the 32 years that current ownership has run the White Sox the average yearly record is:

81.54 wins
76.39 losses

(Remember games were wiped out by the labor impasses in 1981, 1994 and they got a late start in 1995, that's why the numbers don't add up exactly to 81-81.)

Lip

For what it's worth, here is the ranking of AL teams by number of victories since 1981 (going into tonight's games, and excluding the Rays, who weren't in the AL in 1981, and the Brewers, who have since left it).

NYY 2852
BOS 2720
OAK 2630
CHW 2612
ANA 2611
TOR 2593
TEX 2506
CLE 2486
MIN 2460
DET 2449
BAL 2419
SEA 2416
KCR 2335

None of this, of course, has much effect on whether the Sox, at present, need a complete overhaul . . .