To What Degree Do the White Sox Need a COMPLETE Overhaul?

[DeadMoney]

Originally Posted by kittle42

No question, but (and I hate to use this guy as an example) maybe getting our own Sosa type would be a huge step toward overcoming that.

Albert Belle and Adam Dunn weren't the answers.

Getting the Chicago media in their back pocket couldn't hurt either.

IMO this is where the Sox have failed big time the last several years. Whether it was Ozzie sparring with Mariotti or KW sparring with Cowley, the White Sox never had a large enough voice on their side, and instead chose to pick fights with people that could've helped them. Even with as dirty as it may seem to try to be in bed with guys like that, it's sometimes a necessary evil.

[Nellie_Fox]

Originally Posted by TomBradley72

But it IS possible to change that dynamic- just ask the Angels and the Dodgers.

With aggressive, creative leadership and investment- the dyamic can be changed- but going back to the mid-80's JR has always played the role of "victim" vs. truly going after it.

I'm not at all confident that it will change until "the shrine" is gone. The Dodgers certainly weren't selling their ballpark.

[WhiffleBall]

Originally Posted by kittle42

No question, but (and I hate to use this guy as an example) maybe getting our own Sosa type would be a huge step toward overcoming that.

Albert Belle and Adam Dunn weren't the answers.

Frank Thomas!

Thome came close. Everyone loved/loves that guy.

If Beckham would have kept up his rookie year offense along with his current stellar defense then he could have been that player.

The list of 2013 free agents is pretty sparse big talent/name wise, maybe Granderson or Wright if their options aren't picked up:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/0...ee-agents.html

[Frater Perdurabo]

Originally Posted by Nellie_Fox

You see those things as the responsibility of the front office? If your GM starts interfering with the field manager to that extent, you've really got problems.

I guess I wasn't clear. I didn't want to address roster construction, which is the job of the front office. I only wanted to address on-field issues, which are the responsibility of the coaching staff. It was clear to me, but perhaps I should have been more clear to differentiate in my post.

[kittle42]

Originally Posted by WhiffleBall

Frank Thomas!

Thome came close. Everyone loved/loves that guy.

If Beckham would have kept up his rookie year offense along with his current stellar defense then he could have been that player.

The list of 2013 free agents is pretty sparse big talent/name wise, maybe Granderson or Wright if their options aren't picked up:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/0...ee-agents.html

Thomas was the greatest hitter in franchise history but was not a media darling and was viewed as surly until now, as he has shown a softer side in broadcasting (no doubt).

Thome's best years were behind him, not that he wasn't good.

Wright or Granderson aren't big enough to do it.

[voodoochile]

Originally Posted by kittle42

No question, but (and I hate to use this guy as an example) maybe getting our own Sosa type would be a huge step toward overcoming that.

Albert Belle and Adam Dunn weren't the answers.

We just lost our Sosa to Miami (and no I don't mean Buerhle)

[Noneck]

Originally Posted by WhiffleBall

Frank Thomas!

Thomas should have been the Chicago darling before Sosa but it was horrible timing. The Jordan years coincided with the Thomas years and Sosa shot up right after the jordan years.

[kittle42]

Originally Posted by voodoochile

We just lost our Sosa to Miami (and no I don't mean Buerhle)

It's a lot easier to get people to come out to watch a player than a manager, I'd think.

[ChiSoxFann]

Originally Posted by Nellie_Fox

While all of you make valid points, I still think it's being over-analyzed. The fact remains that it's just not "cool" to be a Sox fan in Chicago, and it's "cool" to be a Cubs fan.

IMHO, the Sox can change this by having sustained success. The current model of making the playoffs ever 5-8 years is not how to do it.

Lip mentioned the Indians having their run in the 90s, Minnesota in the early 2000s and now, it appears, the Tigers. If it was the Sox winning Central Division titles every year I feel the tide would shift and it would be cool to be a Sox fan, especially with the Cubs being down for the next few years.

[voodoochile]

Originally Posted by kittle42

It's a lot easier to get people to come out to watch a player than a manager, I'd think.

I think there are very few players who draw simply because they are great baseball players. It's a lot harder to single out individual players in baseball as being "the reason" a team is succeeding - other than pitchers. I think pitchers can draw. I bet Verlander draws for example. I doubt Cabrera does though.

Sosa drew because of what he was accomplishing. Him and McGwire were doing things no one had before. Yes they were juiced, but the fans were either willing to overlook that or were ignorant of it.

If some player in the league suddenly goes on a HR binge or starts to make a serious run at .400, you'll see a spike in attendance too, but even a guy like Cabrera who is making a run at a triple crown won't spike ticket sales that dramatically, IMO. Royals might see a few extra people the next few nights who would otherwise ignore them at this stage of the game, simply to say they were there when Cabrera did it, but they won't suddenly sell out I don't think and in this case it would be something that would last only a few games because it is so dependent on so many things breaking right in the last few games of the season.

Edit: And my reference to Ozzie was that his bluster was similar to Sosa's. He was the most visible vocal face of the franchise. His style is what makes him a draw.

[JB98]

Originally Posted by Nellie_Fox

While all of you make valid points, I still think it's being over-analyzed. The fact remains that it's just not "cool" to be a Sox fan in Chicago, and it's "cool" to be a Cubs fan. That's what's emphasized all over Chicago media, Wrigley Field and the Cubs. It's a shrine, the Cubs are a "storied franchise." The "long-suffering Cubs fan" has become part of Chicago lore, and are held up as some kind of example for all sports fans to emulate. "Oh, they're so loyal and passionate about the Cubbies!"

The news people fawn over the Cubs when they hand off to the sports guy on the 10:00 news. Anything negative about Wrigley or the area around it is not talked about; it's all sunshine and unicorns.

I don't know why the Sox didn't go after the Cubs this year. There should have been billboards on the North Side of Chicago: "Tired of rebuilding? Come see a contending team eight miles south."

They never want to take on the Cubs. Never. I don't know why.

[Lip Man 1]

Originally Posted by Nellie_Fox

While all of you make valid points, I still think it's being over-analyzed. The fact remains that it's just not "cool" to be a Sox fan in Chicago, and it's "cool" to be a Cubs fan. That's what's emphasized all over Chicago media, Wrigley Field and the Cubs. It's a shrine, the Cubs are a "storied franchise." The "long-suffering Cubs fan" has become part of Chicago lore, and are held up as some kind of example for all sports fans to emulate. "Oh, they're so loyal and passionate about the Cubbies!"

The news people fawn over the Cubs when they hand off to the sports guy on the 10:00 news. Anything negative about Wrigley or the area around it is not talked about; it's all sunshine and unicorns.

Nellie: And for that the Sox have only themselves to blame...trying to market themselves from day 1 as "Chicago's American League Team...", SportsVision, JR's part in 94, the "White Flag Trade..." just one self induced mistake after another.

Now it may be to late to change anything even with winning a World Series.

TOM: Before the first Cub / Sox game in 97, JR made this statement on the pregame show, "Chicago has always been a Cubs-town..." Considering JR lived in Chicago since 1957 he should have known better, that's an outright falsehood statement. But it does serve to illustrate your point about being a "victim."

Lip

[TomBradley72]

Originally Posted by Nellie_Fox

I'm not at all confident that it will change until "the shrine" is gone. The Dodgers certainly weren't selling their ballpark.

No- the Dodgers were selling one of the most sucessful franchises in MLB history with 10 World Series appearances since moving to LA + being the team of the celebrities/Hollywood set and a ballpark (Dodger Stadium) that was universally perceived as one of the best in MLB.

The Angels? Nothing to really sell- non descript ballpark, an expansion team from the early 60's with one post season appearance and zero World Series (at the time the Angels started to make their move).

Screw the shrine and the defeatist mentality about taking on one of the losingest franshises in all of major team sports.

There is ALOT of work to be done- but it CAN be done- but as long as JR and his management team are willing to cave to that mentality they don't stand a chance.

Nothing personal- but the White Sox have allowed the Cubs/Wrigley Field "aura" to take on a life of it's own for 30+ years while all but rolling over and giving into it + various self inflicted wounds (i.e. Sportsvision, letting Harry Caray go, building a horrible, sterile park with no connection to their history (pre-renovations), not understanding or catering to the core fan base, ignoring the importance of the neighborhood around the park, etc.)

[russ99]

Originally Posted by TomBradley72

But it IS possible to change that dynamic- just ask the Angels and the Dodgers.

With aggressive, creative leadership and investment- the dyamic can be changed- but going back to the mid-80's JR has always played the role of "victim" vs. truly going after it.

Also, the reasons that it supposedly not cool to be a Sox fan are pretty much old stereotypes and some are outright fabrications by the Trib back when they ran the Cubs.

What should really be the focus is how much fun it is to go to a Sox game.

I have at least one group a year of co-workers in Evanston, and other than the people I know are fans all remark to me how much fun they had and how nice the park is, often surprised. That needs to change.

[TaylorStSox]

I guess it's the circle I keep. There certainly isn't anything "cool" about the Cubs or Wrigleyville. I'd say it's about as anti-cool, fratboy, yuppie as it gets. Granted this is coming from art school/bike messenger. Unfortunately, the Bohemian/Hipster types tend not to give a **** about sports.