If _____ then _____

[TheOldRoman]

Originally Posted by SoxFanCPA

The school argument is brutal. The real truth is that everyone realized this team wasn't very good. Yeah they were in 1st for a while but they didn't pass the eye test, so people didn't go.

1) Bull****. The team WAS good. They played winning baseball for most of the year and would have likely would have won the division if not for their total collapse. People who neither understand statistics nor baseball will argue that the last few weeks were regression to the mean, but that's not true at all. "Oh, they are only talented enough to be a few over .500, so that means they will go 11-17 in September and hit something like .100 with RISP over the entire month". It doesn't work out like that. Those people were also wrong about Detroit being so great and being able to turn it on at any minute.

2) The point of watching baseball is to enjoy the game and see winning. I suppose a few clowns were midly peeved that their gloom-and-doom predictions were wrong, so they stayed away from the park and said "daaaah, dese guys suck and dey won't win anyways." Well, even if the team secretly wasn't good and you just knew in your heart of hearts that they would go 11-17 in September, the point is that those fools still missed out on a summer of exciting, winning baseball. You can't count on a playoff team every single year, but any summer where the team plays well, wins, and competes deep into the season is a pretty good one. So some dumbasses said being in first place and winning wasn't enough for them to enjoy a single July game because they thought the team would collapse in September. Well, those people should stop watching baseball all together.

[russ99]

I've always maintained that Jerry has it backwards. He uses past good attendance to "reward" the fans by higher payroll, more win-now moves and a better overall team; when IMO the investment in the team is what attracts the fans.

While I voted if you build it we will come, I think it's more along the lines of we'll fill most of the lower bowl and the good seats in the upper deck between the dugouts but the team has to be really good to sell the rest of the place.

Plus the overall high prices to go to a game and the funky ticket structures aren't helping things in this economy where income isn't so "disposable" anymore.

[TheOldRoman]

Originally Posted by russ99

I've always maintained that Jerry has it backwards. He uses past good attendance to "reward" the fans by higher payroll, more win-now moves and a better overall team

If you think that is the Sox' business plan, how do you explain them increasing payroll $25 million in 2011, coming off a season in which the team competed the whole year and still drew 2,000 fewer per game than the previous year?

[russ99]

Originally Posted by TheOldRoman

1) Bull****. The team WAS good. They played winning baseball for most of the year and would have likely would have won the division if not for their total collapse. People who neither understand statistics nor baseball will argue that the last few weeks were regression to the mean, but that's not true at all. "Oh, they are only talented enough to be a few over .500, so that means they will go 11-17 in September and hit something like .100 with RISP over the entire month". It doesn't work out like that. Those people were also wrong about Detroit being so great and being able to turn it on at any minute.

2) The point of watching baseball is to enjoy the game and see winning. I suppose a few clowns were midly peeved that their gloom-and-doom predictions were wrong, so they stayed away from the park and said "daaaah, dese guys suck and dey won't win anyways." Well, even if the team secretly wasn't good and you just knew in your heart of hearts that they would go 11-17 in September, the point is that those fools still missed out on a summer of exciting, winning baseball. You can't count on a playoff team every single year, but any summer where the team plays well, wins, and competes deep into the season is a pretty good one. So some dumbasses said being in first place and winning wasn't enough for them to enjoy a single July game because they thought the team would collapse in September. Well, those people should stop watching baseball all together.

Winning baseball and good baseball aren't always the same thing.

Some of our players were good, others are wastes of an at-bat or a pitching appearance. And if you want to discount September, take a look at our season-long player stats. There's maybe 10 guys who stand out and the rest of the 15-20 guys are mediocre at best to borderline awful. I'm not expecting a perfect roster, but there are obvious and eventually fatal flaws.

So often this year we had to sit through bad baseball while we did enough to win at just over a .500 clip.

But I still had fun at the park this year, regardless.

[TheOldRoman]

Originally Posted by russ99

Winning baseball and good baseball aren't always the same thing.

Some of our players were good, others are wastes of an at-bat or a pitching appearance. And if you want to discount September, take a look at our season-long player stats. There's maybe 10 guys who stand out and the rest of the 15-20 guys are mediocre at best to borderline awful. I'm not expecting a perfect roster, but there are obvious and eventually fatal flaws.

So often this year we had to sit through bad baseball while we did enough to win at just over a .500 clip.

But I still had fun at the park this year, regardless.

The team was 10-15 games over .500 for pretty much the entire summer. They weren't barely staying afloat. So the team won, but wasn't flashy or whatever, so that is why fans stayed away. I don't get it. If these people need to see 7-0 wins on a regular basis just to be able to enjoy themselves at the ballpark, I reiterate that they need to stop watching baseball and devote themselves to something else.

[Jerko]

THIS year the attendance was doomed because last year's team sucked and they lost a fan favorite like Buehrle while keeping the hated (deservedly so, based on last season) Dunn and Rios, and basically admitted they were "all out" going into the season. They lost a lot of ST holders who could just buy seats for any game they wanted on stubhub for LESS than the plan would cost. The Sox have sold before, so it's NOT location or access to the park (which has actually improved since the last "good" attendance year), it's not school, its' not lack of bars (there's 2 bars built right into the park that people can just walk into, and 3 more if you're a member) for people that like that, etc. They didn't draw because they were, based on 2011, inherently unlikeable as a group. Robin's hiring was taken by some fans as a "we surrender" move, and even though the boys were in first for a long time, and anything can happen in the playoffs; this reminded me of 08. Glad to make it in, knew they'd get wiped out in the first round. I think if they would have at least made the playoffs this year, next years ST base would have grown. Now that they blew it, expect more of the same attendance wise. So, if the Sox build it, I think people will come.

[kobo]

Originally Posted by DumpJerry

How many teams won the World Series doing what they Cubs say they are doing? Keep in mind they keep moving the goalposts further and further back. First it was three years, then five. Now they are saying seven. The truth is, they are rolling the dice with this plan.

The Cubs' plan will work if the other 29 teams stop trying to improve themselves. Theo has been stocking up on position players with all his deals, without pitching, the Cubs will get nowhere.

I have no idea if what the Cubs are doing is going to work. I don't think it will but it remains to be seen. But at least they have a plan. They have a direction. There is hope. Those are things that do not exist with the Sox organization at this time.

[SOXSINCE'70]

If you serve Vienna Kosher Hot Dogs,I will come.

[voodoochile]

Originally Posted by kobo

I have no idea if what the Cubs are doing is going to work. I don't think it will but it remains to be seen. But at least they have a plan. They have a direction. There is hope. Those are things that do not exist with the Sox organization at this time.

I think the Sox have a fine plan. Play to win every single year. If that means spending big money on major FA's or trading minor league pieces to grab a necessary piece mid-summer so be it.

No, those acquisitions don't always pay off in immediate dividends and some of them even fall flat on their face, but at least they try to fill needs and go out to grab players who have the potential to help the team succeed. I'll take that over a 5-year rebuild the minor leagues and hope for the best "plan" (read: let the owners pocket a bunch of cash while selling a ton of tickets to morons) crap any day of the week...

[Irishsox1]

First, the cost of going to a game is a big issue, given the economy I know of a lot of families that took their kids to only 2 games and they said it was the cost for the cutbacks.

Second, this team was picked to be horrible. Sports Illustrated (which is a joke of a rag) picked the Sox to finish last with something like 65 wins. The team did make changes, Youk, Francisco, Wise and a boat load of pitchers from the minors but it always felt like no matter what, Detroit had the better team and would eventually get it together and grab it. Leyland was correct, the Sox were going to be in it all year.

Third, the team never pulled away. The 2000 team got super hot and built a large lead, the 2005 team was awesome all year. Those looked like playoff teams. I never felt this team was a playoff team, just didn't look or feel like one. I really hoped I was going to be proven wrong and they almost pulled it off by not getting eliminated till Oct. 1st, but the fans never bought into this team and neither did I.

Fourth, the Royals. We went 6-12 against them and Detroit has gone 12-4 against KC. If we go 10-8 against them we're 1 game up with 2 to play.

[voodoochile]

Originally Posted by Irishsox1

First, the cost of going to a game is a big issue, given the economy I know of a lot of families that took their kids to only 2 games and they said it was the cost for the cutbacks.

Second, this team was picked to be horrible. Sports Illustrated (which is a joke of a rag) picked the Sox to finish last with something like 65 wins. The team did make changes, Youk, Francisco, Wise and a boat load of pitchers from the minors but it always felt like no matter what, Detroit had the better team and would eventually get it together and grab it. Leyland was correct, the Sox were going to be in it all year.

Third, the team never pulled away. The 2000 team got super hot and built a large lead, the 2005 team was awesome all year. Those looked like playoff teams. I never felt this team was a playoff team, just didn't look or feel like one. I really hoped I was going to be proven wrong and they almost pulled it off by not getting eliminated till Oct. 1st, but the fans never bought into this team and neither did I.

Fourth, the Royals. We went 6-12 against them and Detroit has gone 12-4 against KC. If we go 10-8 against them we're 1 game up with 2 to play.

This is exactly how I feel. Well said. I will add in that I think the schedule at the end of the year did the Sox no favors at all. The rainout and rescheduled game on their only remaining day off combined with the odd travel schedule KC to LA really sucked a lot of life out of this team. I realize the Kittens dealt with similar issues, but they are healthier and younger at key positions as well as more experienced with less key positions filled by rookies or second year players. The Sox simply ran out of gas.

[asindc]

Originally Posted by russ99

Winning baseball and good baseball aren't always the same thing.

Some of our players were good, others are wastes of an at-bat or a pitching appearance. And if you want to discount September, take a look at our season-long player stats. There's maybe 10 guys who stand out and the rest of the 15-20 guys are mediocre at best to borderline awful. I'm not expecting a perfect roster, but there are obvious and eventually fatal flaws.

So often this year we had to sit through bad baseball while we did enough to win at just over a .500 clip.

But I still had fun at the park this year, regardless.

That describes probably 25-27 teams, at least. The difference between most teams is usually how well your best players play relative to everyone else's best players. Trade Pauly for Cabrera or Sale for Verlander and "hello division title." On rare occasions, the 11-25 on the roster will give you a lot more than expected (see Detroit Tigers, 2011 edition, or Oakland A's, 2012 edition). [Obvious-speak on]Usually though, the best players make the most difference.[Obvious-speak off]

[doogiec]

I often hear that White Sox fans will support a winner, that they just won’t support losing baseball. And often that is said as a criticism of Cubs fans.
I think the facts show that this, unfortunately, is complete BS.

In 2005, the White Sox had the ultimate season. First place every day. Best record in the AL, again every day. Only one win short of best record in MLB. An exciting team that got off to a red hot start. The White Sox will never have a better season than 2005.

And they finished 17th in attendance. In September, they averaged around 27,000 per game.

Now you may make the argument that the Sox just don’t have a large fan base. But in 2006, they finished a very respectable 9th in attendance. Those fans came from somewhere.

Fast forward to 2012. They were clearly not the best team in baseball, but rolled into September in first place. And for the final homestand, games that meant as much as playoff games were sparsely attended. They were giving away lower deck tickets to people who merely filled out a survey to avoid embarrassment. And lots of tickets were priced as low as $12.

Many have made the argument that high ticket prices during a bad economy were the cause. Yet, when playoff tickets were put on sale, games 1 and 2 sold out within a day. Those tickets weren’t cheap .
The White Sox, for reasons unknown to me, have a huge portion of their fanbase that will only come out AFTER a championship of some sort has been won. That is very different than saying Sox fans will only support a winner. That is the definition of bandwagon fans.

The Sox need to attract more casual fans that just want to enjoy a day at the ballpark. They can start by getting a TV PBP man that doesn’t sound like the angry bitter drunk you move away from at a bar. They can try to improve stadium operations: Get the concession lines moving quickly or use technology to make it easier to order food, hire and train ushers who act like they give a crap, use the scoreboards to give baseball information other than meaningless trivia. They can make the price of parking reasonable so you don’t feel ripped off before you even enter the building.

A day at the ball game can be fun even if they aren’t raising a flag that day. And if a large portion of the Sox fan base can’t deal with that, the Sox need to do a better job of attracting new fans.

[DumpJerry]

Originally Posted by doublem23

That's a bunch of crap. This idea that the Cubs are just guaranteed to be good in a few years because they're racking up the 100-loss seasons now is just absurdity.

What did the Sox do to instill hope in people? Uh, they spent the majority of the season in 1st place, and don't give me this "well, uh, everyone knew they weren't going to be very good," which is crap-o-la because the Sox were neck and neck with NY and Texas for most of the season, as well.

This is the same old tired whiny high school drama queen crap that was posted last year, the Sox need to burn the whole thing down and try to start over from scratch, we need to lose 100 games to get better, etc. It's all crap. The Sox need to make some moves to improve the club, but they don't need to make DRASTIC, SWEEPING changes.

People look at Tampa as a team that took advantage of being pure crap for many years to load up on great draft picks to get to the World Series and contend for the post season each year since.

People also look at Mega Millions Lottery winners as proof that you, too, can strike it rich.

If taking a dive to get great draft picks (and, given how MLB structures the draft, do you really have an advantage after the first round? After the second round, the playing field is pretty much leveled) works into making a team a World Series contender, I have three words: Kansas City Royals. The Royals have their moments, but they will never be a pick to click in March.

[WhiffleBall]

Originally Posted by doogiec

The Sox need to attract more casual fans that just want to enjoy a day at the ballpark. They can start by getting a TV PBP man that doesn’t sound like the angry bitter drunk you move away from at a bar. They can try to improve stadium operations: Get the concession lines moving quickly or use technology to make it easier to order food, hire and train ushers who act like they give a crap, use the scoreboards to give baseball information other than meaningless trivia. They can make the price of parking reasonable so you don’t feel ripped off before you even enter the building.

A day at the ball game can be fun even if they aren’t raising a flag that day. And if a large portion of the Sox fan base can’t deal with that, the Sox need to do a better job of attracting new fans.

I don't think the contents of the scoreboard, and/or the time it takes to get something from the concession stand, or even Hawk are keeping anyone from the ballpark.

The September turnout was disappointing. I think a lot of fans did not believe this team was that good and needed them to make the ALDS to prove it. Unfortunetly those fans were right, we weren't that good.

The reality of the matter is that we live in two baseball team town with only enough fans to give one of those teams the type of game after game turnout you see in a one team town like Boston. That said the Cubs attendance would be similiar to the Sox if you took away the out of town visitors and Northside twenty/thirty somethings with lots of disposable income.