To What Degree Do the White Sox Need a COMPLETE Overhaul?

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by DSpivack

True, but are Sox fans worse off compared to other fan bases? And how does the drop in attendance for the White Sox compare to other teams in the last 6 years?

And, this is always the question that doesn't get answered, HOW MUCH MONEY do the Sox make compared to other teams at the gate? Sure, we're in the bottom 3rd of butts in seats, but with the price of tickets, etc. we have to be in the top 1/2 if not 1/3 of money brought in.

People seem to treat the Sox management like they're a bunch of dopes that have no idea what they're doing, but I'm telling, you this is their plan now, they set the tickets to what they figure will get them around 25 K every night (about 50-60% of the park) in most years and they make their cash that way and then, if the team really puts it together, they're in line for a HUGE payday. Look, if the Sox are filling the park up 100%, then there's nowhere to go, right? If you're making money with 1/2 the stadium filled, why not do it?

[voodoochile]

Originally Posted by DSpivack

True, but are Sox fans worse off compared to other fan bases? And how does the drop in attendance for the White Sox compare to other teams in the last 6 years?

Sox are coming off their best run of attendance in team history in those 6 years, so some dropoff is inevitable unless they manage to turn into the Yankees. In addition, there was ZERO hype about this team last winter. The only moves they made was to lose a once popular manager and probably the most beloved pitcher in team history.

I honestly don't know where attendance is nationally. I assume it's down as a rule except in areas that are immune from this kind of stuff and where teams are on a good role.

In addition the Sox actually drew 1.97M this year. Just FYI...

http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance/_/sort/homeTotal

[voodoochile]

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

Fans didn't get behind this team in a pennant race because they aren't likable. They don't have an identity. They don't have stars. That's partly because the marketing staff is awful and partly because the aging core is stale.

What's your qualifications for making this statement?

[voodoochile]

Originally Posted by doublem23

And, this is always the question that doesn't get answered, HOW MUCH MONEY do the Sox make compared to other teams at the gate? Sure, we're in the bottom 3rd of butts in seats, but with the price of tickets, etc. we have to be in the top 1/2 if not 1/3 of money brought in.

People seem to treat the Sox management like they're a bunch of dopes that have no idea what they're doing, but I'm telling, you this is their plan now, they set the tickets to what they figure will get them around 25 K every night (about 50-60% of the park) in most years and they make their cash that way and then, if the team really puts it together, they're in line for a HUGE payday. Look, if the Sox are filling the park up 100%, then there's nowhere to go, right? If you're making money with 1/2 the stadium filled, why not do it?

In 2010 the Sox grossed $214M according to this site: http://www.statista.com/statistics/1...teams-in-2010/

That was 12th even though they were 17th in attendance.

I do think it might be time to evaluate seat prices given the state of the economy, but it's a business, and if they think they are maximizing profits this way it's their call...

[MUsoxfan]

Originally Posted by doublem23

Look, if the Sox are filling the park up 100%, then there's nowhere to go, right? If you're making money with 1/2 the stadium filled, why not do it?

That's fine if they weren't bitching their fans out for not paying out the nose

[TaylorStSox]

Originally Posted by voodoochile

What's your qualifications for making this statement?

Lack of attendance in a playoff race. Lack of coverage and a general lack of buzz. There's no way for me to prove "buzz," but I can tell you that there was none. In the past, when the team's doing well, you can tell just walking around the streets of the city. There's some excitement. You see Sox hats everywhere in the loop. People talk about the team. This year, there was none of that. Obviously my observations are anecdotal, but believe me, there was no buzz. The product is stale. The broadcast is stale. The organization needs a shot in the arm. IMO, a youth movement along with re-branding the image is a good place to start.

[Lip Man 1]

I agree with those who say the offense needs work. At times it produced but other times, like in late June / early July and of course the final weeks of the season it went right down the toilet.

The were among the best at RISP for the year (until the pressure was really turned on) they scored consistently according to the number of runs per game yet were still shut out 11 times and (so far) have had 66 games where they scored three runs or less (41% and change for the season).

The question is though, and it's a big one for Hahn, how can you get two or three guys who hit say .280 with power into your lineup?

Miguel Cabrera's aren't available every day are there? (looking back you wonder if Kenny doesn't regret not completing the deal for Miggy because the Sox wouldn't pick up the tab for Wills...another 'what if' for the club)

Lip

[LoveYourSuit]

Originally Posted by voodoochile

In 2010 the Sox grossed $214M according to this site: http://www.statista.com/statistics/1...teams-in-2010/

That was 12th even though they were 17th in attendance.

I do think it might be time to evaluate seat prices given the state of the economy, but it's a business, and if they think they are maximizing profits this way it's their call...

And this is why they continue to have a very mediocre product.

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by Lip Man 1

Miguel Cabrera's aren't available every day are there? (looking back you wonder if Kenny doesn't regret not completing the deal for Miggy because the Sox wouldn't pick up the tab for Wills...another 'what if' for the club)

Wait, wait, wait... There's no way anyone can actually believe the Marlins would have traded Cabrera to the Sox over the Tigers, right? Detroit gave up 2 Baseball America Top 10 prospects in Maybin and Miller (not just Tigers' Top 10... All of baseball Top 10) for Cabrera in addition to eating Dontrelle's contract. If the Sox had ever been rumored to be real players in those trade talks, it was obviously just a ruse by Florida to earn more leverage over the Tigers and force them to give up their two most coveted prospects and eat $40 M of Willis over 3 seasons. Should be clear by now that whatever offer the Sox may have had was never seriously considered.

[LoveYourSuit]

Originally Posted by MUsoxfan

That's fine if they weren't bitching their fans out for not paying out the nose

And holding fans accountable for what the future payroll is.

[DSpivack]

Originally Posted by doublem23

And, this is always the question that doesn't get answered, HOW MUCH MONEY do the Sox make compared to other teams at the gate? Sure, we're in the bottom 3rd of butts in seats, but with the price of tickets, etc. we have to be in the top 1/2 if not 1/3 of money brought in.

People seem to treat the Sox management like they're a bunch of dopes that have no idea what they're doing, but I'm telling, you this is their plan now, they set the tickets to what they figure will get them around 25 K every night (about 50-60% of the park) in most years and they make their cash that way and then, if the team really puts it together, they're in line for a HUGE payday. Look, if the Sox are filling the park up 100%, then there's nowhere to go, right? If you're making money with 1/2 the stadium filled, why not do it?

This is a great point and I do suspect you are exactly right. I've thought the same for awhile in regards to why prices are the way they are. It seems to me that the ownership might be great at running the franchise as a business in terms of maximizing revenue and making sure the team stays afloat for the long term, but...

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

Lack of attendance in a playoff race. Lack of coverage and a general lack of buzz. There's no way for me to prove "buzz," but I can tell you that there was none. In the past, when the team's doing well, you can tell just walking around the streets of the city. There's some excitement. You see Sox hats everywhere in the loop. People talk about the team. This year, there was none of that. Obviously my observations are anecdotal, but believe me, there was no buzz. The product is stale. The broadcast is stale. The organization needs a shot in the arm. IMO, a youth movement along with re-branding the image is a good place to start.

...in terms of how they run the business when it comes marketing that business and selling it, it seems they do a terrible job at it. That marketing I think has definitely become stale. If the problem is they can't sell their players to the public, the answer isn't to change the players; change the players only if that is the best plan for improving the play on the field. If they can't sell that product, then they have to change their way of selling it.

[TDog]

Originally Posted by amsteel

We all saw this year that unless 4 or 5 guys have career years this team is good for 80-85 wins. The Tigers are gonna keep throwing $ around until they win a WS so I have a feeling a division title is a ways away.

An overhaul is needed, but god damn, is it gonna suck.

You really don't know if a player is having a career year until his career is over. The Tigers may well have had career years from Cabrera and Fielder (and maybe even Berry), and they aren't going to win 90 games this year.

After the 1982 season, Jimmy Piersall went on a rant about how the Sox, who finished six games back in the West, weren't close and outlined the things they needed to do to contend, and really, how could they, faced with the loss of Kemp. The Sox did none of them, but they did win the West by 20 games in 1983. If the Sox had won one more of the winnable games on the homestand and hadn't blown a late 6-0 lead to the Tigers on an afternoon in May, if the Royals commit four errors instead of five in a game on the Tigers last homestand, the White Sox would be in first place right now.

Since the Sox beat the Tigers in the makeup game, the Sox have appeared dead, until tonight, at least. Poor pitching. Worse hitting. The team looked spent. Even Sale didn't approach being a good pitcher in his last start. I can't attribute a majority of it to pressure because it happened after the Sox came from behind to beat the Tigers in the makeup game. It was a long season for the less experienced major leaguers, and even Peavy didn't step up at the end. It's been a long season for Pierzynski because catching is such a demanding position and he probably would have benefited from having a backup give him some more days off. It's been a long season for Konerko, who came back from being hit in the face to play through the problem with his hand and come back from a concussion.

Whether it was a curse, a coincidence or insight to honor the 1972 team to the extent that they wore the 1972 home uniforms on Sundays, this team competitively was not unlike the 1972 team, although that team faded earlier in their season, going up the A's in their dynasty years. The 2012 team should get the same respect from fans.

As for the future, I don't know that an overhaul is warranted. I certainly wouldn't like the sort of overhaul that some fans would demand.

I have read that Peavy's option won't be picked up. The way he pitched later in the season, the way he blew up in that May loss at home to the Tigers for that matter, I think his elite contract days are over and belive he will be playing for less next year, wherever that may be. I expect Sale to be stronger in the future, and Danks should be returning to the rotation. I don't know if the Sox are going to pursue any free agent starters, but of late, the starting rotation has always been a priority for White Sox management.

With relievers, you really don't know what you have from year to year. The strong rookies this year may not be able to get hitters out in the future. But Jones and Reed look like they could be very good pitchers. So does Santiago, whose season started as the closer and closed as a starter.

I never really liked this team offensively. It isn't that I don't like home runs. But I don't like home runs to the exclusion of consistent hitting. When your No. 3 hitter is hitting less than .210, it really doesn't matter that he has more than 40 home runs because his failures are hurting you more than his successes are helping you. I would like to see that Sox trade Dunn in the offseaon, but that isn't going to happen. I don't believe he is the sort of hitter that can anchor a solid offense.

Coming into this season, I though the Sox had enough pitching and defense and would find enough offense to compete with the Tigers with all of their offense. I was right in that regard, at least for all but the last two weeks of the season. If in the offseason, they firm up the starting rotation and assemble an able bullpen, if they find some more line drives and fewer strikeouts in their offense, I think they might be able to compete in the Central again next year.

Some changes are inevitable. Some will be out of the team's control. I don't know what the Sox are going to do with their pitcher, let alone third base or even catcher next year. But I don't believe this team needs to be overhauled.

[Frater Perdurabo]

There are so many permutations of what KW/Hahn could do this offseason, so I'm just going to wait and see. But these are just a few suggestions:

Our pitchers need to give up fewer walks.

Continue taking infield practice regularly.

Work with DeAza, Beckham, and Alexei on their hitting approaches - including bunting for hits - as well as their base running.

[Dan H]

Originally Posted by voodoochile

Sox are coming off their best run of attendance in team history in those 6 years, so some dropoff is inevitable unless they manage to turn into the Yankees. In addition, there was ZERO hype about this team last winter. The only moves they made was to lose a once popular manager and probably the most beloved pitcher in team history.

I honestly don't know where attendance is nationally. I assume it's down as a rule except in areas that are immune from this kind of stuff and where teams are on a good role.

In addition the Sox actually drew 1.97M this year. Just FYI...

http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance/_/sort/homeTotal

I agree with all these points. Not to mention that 2011 was a deflating year where expensive players didn't perform.

I wish attendance was better. I also wish for a team that doesn't do an el foldo act in September.

[wassagstdu]

A .500 team where nobody has any trade value and a dust bowl on the farm. Thanks, KW!

Edit: I take it back. I'll bet the Yankees would take Sale for Nick Swisher.