To What Degree Do the White Sox Need a COMPLETE Overhaul?

[WLL1855]

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

Line up
C - Flowers/vet back up (Paying an old AJ isn't the right move)
1 - Dunn (trade PK for salary dump. Moving Dunn isn't realistic)
2 - Beckham (September was encouraging. His defense is overrated, yet very good)
SS - Ramirez (IF defense is key for a young staff)
3 - Ouch. I really don't know. Sanchez?
LF - De Aza (give the youth some time to catch up)
CF - Thompson or Walker (neither is ready, but their upside is worth the risk IMO)
RF - Viciedo (capitalize on Rios' resurgence. Try to get value)
DH - dreaded rotating DH to maximize match ups

Forgive me for snipping your post but it had to be done.

I honestly think making Flowers the everyday catcher will be Brian Anderson 2.0. If you can live with that, then you're a better person than I am. Personally, I hope we offer AJ a respectable deal (2 yrs - no more) that both sides can live with and he takes it.

PK is a 10 and 5 guy and there aren't many teams he's going to want to move on to. I'd be willing to bet money he retires a White Sox player.

There might be someone out there willing to take Rios but the return isn't going to be much either unless we eat a lot of his contract.

You've got some crazy ideas; I'll give you that. It looks like painful team to watch play.

[Tragg]

Originally Posted by WLL1855

Forgive me for snipping your post but it had to be done.

I honestly think making Flowers the everyday catcher will be Brian Anderson 2.0. If you can live with that, then you're a better person than I am. Personally, I hope we offer AJ a respectable deal (2 yrs - no more) that both sides can live with and he takes it.

Relative to the position, he won't be. There aren't many good hitting catchers. He has some power.

I think this team proved that they cant' win more than 85 games - so if we re-sign everyone it's 85 games. But we won't re-sign everyone, so that leaves us at .500ish. Sounds like a good time to tear down some. If we still had Escobar, we could trade Alexei perhaps. If Mitchell were ready, which he isn't, we could trade Rios (tradeable with 1 year left). Probably will trade Floyd and go with Danks and Sale and 3 5th-starters. Viciedo needs major work on the strike zone. No use messing with Beckham - he won't bring anything in trade and he did have a better last 6 weeks. I'd also trade anyone in the pen except for Reed, although we'd probably get more by waiting until next July.

[voodoochile]

Originally Posted by WLL1855

Forgive me for snipping your post but it had to be done.

I honestly think making Flowers the everyday catcher will be Brian Anderson 2.0. If you can live with that, then you're a better person than I am. Personally, I hope we offer AJ a respectable deal (2 yrs - no more) that both sides can live with and he takes it.

PK is a 10 and 5 guy and there aren't many teams he's going to want to move on to. I'd be willing to bet money he retires a White Sox player.

There might be someone out there willing to take Rios but the return isn't going to be much either unless we eat a lot of his contract.

You've got some crazy ideas; I'll give you that. It looks like painful team to watch play.

The question is, "why?" I mean, can't the kids who will be catching up do that anyway? What are the Sox going to get for Rios and PK that makes this a good idea. If you are going to do actually trade PK then keep Rios in RF and let Viciedo DH and learn first or continue to split time in LF.

[TaylorStSox]

Originally Posted by WLL1855

Forgive me for snipping your post but it had to be done.

I honestly think making Flowers the everyday catcher will be Brian Anderson 2.0. If you can live with that, then you're a better person than I am. Personally, I hope we offer AJ a respectable deal (2 yrs - no more) that both sides can live with and he takes it.

PK is a 10 and 5 guy and there aren't many teams he's going to want to move on to. I'd be willing to bet money he retires a White Sox player.

There might be someone out there willing to take Rios but the return isn't going to be much either unless we eat a lot of his contract.

You've got some crazy ideas; I'll give you that. It looks like painful team to watch play.

1. There's no point in hanging on to AJ. He's bad defensively and I'm talking about a major overhaul of the roster. You might as well see what you have with Flowers. .240/20/70/.330 isn't out of the question and he's a good defender.
2. PK is a 10/5 guy. If he has no desire to move to a contender, it says a lot about him IMO.
3. Rios' contract really isn't bad if he produces to his career averages. I'm sure teams will be willing to eat his salary if he's producing like he did this year. He was a true 5 tool player. They're still rare.

[TaylorStSox]

Originally Posted by Tragg

Relative to the position, he won't be. There aren't many good hitting catchers. He has some power.

I think this team proved that they cant' win more than 85 games - so if we re-sign everyone it's 85 games. But we won't re-sign everyone, so that leaves us at .500ish. Sounds like a good time to tear down some. If we still had Escobar, we could trade Alexei perhaps. If Mitchell were ready, which he isn't, we could trade Rios (tradeable with 1 year left). Probably will trade Floyd and go with Danks and Sale and 3 5th-starters. Viciedo needs major work on the strike zone. No use messing with Beckham - he won't bring anything in trade and he did have a better last 6 weeks. I'd also trade anyone in the pen except for Reed, although we'd probably get more by waiting until next July.

I'll take Jones and Veal over Reed. Reed's problem is that he has no wipe out pitch right now. His fastball, while lacking some velocity, has good movement, but hitters are sitting dead red on him because they don't respect his slider or change.

[JB98]

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

1. There's no point in hanging on to AJ. He's bad defensively and I'm talking about a major overhaul of the roster. You might as well see what you have with Flowers. .240/20/70/.330 isn't out of the question and he's a good defender.
2. PK is a 10/5 guy. If he has no desire to move to a contender, it says a lot about him IMO.
3. Rios' contract really isn't bad if he produces to his career averages. I'm sure teams will be willing to eat his salary if he's producing like he did this year. He was a true 5 tool player. They're still rare.

You realize they won't get anything of consequence for him, right? He's gonna be 37 on Opening Day, and he'll be coming off wrist surgery.

IMO, he's more valuable on the roster than in a trade.

[roylestillman]

Some real good points on the marketing/attendance issues in this thread.

As dismal as it seemed, attendance was really not as bad as is being portrayed. Given how horrible 2011 was I heard and read that the Sox were bracing for a drop in attendance of 200-250,000 just in dropped season ticket renewals. In the end 2012 attendance was off by only about 35,000 over last year, and ranked 14th highest in the 112 years of the club. Still, to rank 24th in the majors is embarrassing and should be addressed.

At the beginning of the year I thought getting fans in the seats was all about winning and cost. I still think they're important, but the year proved not the only things. They were in first for a good chunk of the year, yet couldn't get a more than a handful of crowds above 30,000. When cheap seats were made available on Monday nights and other late season dates, the jump at the gate was hardly noticeable.

There is simply no buzz around this team. I dropped my partial season tickets this year not because of economics, but because 9 of my 27 sets of tickets went unused. The reason was that I couldn't find anyone who wanted to go. (may say more about me than the Sox, but I'll handle that another time.) Did anyone else notice that while we were on our run this year there was no hook, like the Don't Stop Believing, or Winning Ugly or Southside Hitman thing going on? The team may have talent but it is DULL.

But that is what marketing is all about. Since the beginning of the Ozzie era, the Sox relied on the manager to be the front man or the face of the organization. Fans never got to know the players. Never developed any kind of idea what kind of people they are. Does anybody know what half of these players voices even sound like? I watch MLB's Intentional Talk nearly every day and every day they do a remote interview with a player. In that ten minutes you realize what really funny guys there are out there. Brendan McCarthy being one of them, but when he was with us he wasn't allowed within 300 feet of a microphone. I think over the last year, I only saw Chris Sale interviewed and it sounded like he was given talking points.

People here brought up John McDonough and the Blackhawks analogy. The Sox could learn a lot from what that organization did. A lot of that had to do with getting those players out in front of the cameras and letting people get to know them. Tough to do given that these folks wear masks when they play. Blackhawks TV, including the half hour shows they air are brilliant. You know the players life stories, their wives, their parents and their dogs. You see their lives on and off the ice. Have you ever seen a Sox player like that? The Hawks humanized their players and made people want to go out and see them, selling out a stadium built in the 90's, surrounded by parking lots, in a neighborhood people still think is sketchy even though its not.

I don't think the Sox have fallen out of favor as bad as the Blackhawks did, but I do think they need to go a long way to put them back into the minds of people and get people to talk about going out to see the Sox again

[TaylorStSox]

Originally Posted by JB98

You realize they won't get anything of consequence for him, right? He's gonna be 37 on Opening Day, and he'll be coming off wrist surgery.

IMO, he's more valuable on the roster than in a trade.

That's why I called it a salary dump.

[Tragg]

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

I'll take Jones and Veal over Reed. Reed's problem is that he has no wipe out pitch right now. His fastball, while lacking some velocity, has good movement, but hitters are sitting dead red on him because they don't respect his slider or change.

Well, I wouldn't. I don't disagree that those 2 have been more effective lately, but I think Reed is more talented and worth waiting for. he may be starter quality if he develop those secondaries.

I really had Crain and Thornton in mind (their contract may be up too, not sure). I'd keep JOnes and Reed.

[DSpivack]

Originally Posted by Tragg

Well, I wouldn't. I don't disagree that those 2 have been more effective lately, but I think Reed is more talented and worth waiting for. he may be starter quality if he develop those secondaries.

I really had Crain and Thornton in mind (their contract may be up too, not sure). I'd keep JOnes and Reed.

Both are signed through next season.

[Lip Man 1]

Royle:

One other issue that I haven't seen brought up anyplace. The weather...the Sox got screwed by the schedule makers again with so many April dates in what's usually bad spring weather.

Guess what?

It's worse next season.

Seriously you'd think MLB would realize the Sox are struggling and make some accommodations for when better temps arrive. They've done it in the past for Cleveland for example according to Bob Grim....but when it's the Sox? No can do.

Lip

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

That's why I called it a salary dump.

What's the point of salary dumping if you have no one to replace him?

[Railsplitter]

Originally Posted by TomBradley72

In looking at the status of this team and overall organization as we close out a disappointing 2012- to what degree do you think it's time for a significant overhaul across the board (not just on the playing field)?

1. Major league roster- expensive free agent contracts looming for Peavy, Youkilis and AJ (without any real help in the farm system to replace them)- and saddled with Adam Dunn for another 2 years.
2. Farm System- some good talent that helped the 2012 team (young pitching especially)- but I don't see alot of guys that could potentially help in 2013 where we need the help.
3. Marketing- After a strong start- I think Brooks Boyer is running out of gas- if you can't draw 2 million when you spend most of the season you're in 1st place and the cross town team is losing 100 games- I think marketing is accountable. "Dynamic pricing", worn out promotions like Mullett Night, etc., mediocre TV and newspaper advertising, etc.- they seem to really have lost their way in this area.
4. TV & Radio Announcers- IMHO Farmer & DJ are unlistenable- I only listen when I need a score- but I used to like having the radio on in the background while doing other things during the season- but not with these 2- I think both should be dumped. On the TV side- I'm more of a Hawk fan than most- but he showed a noticable decline this season, and the chemistry just isn't there with Stone.

I think this team needs some bold, offseason changes to get back on track- but there's no real evidence that JR has the inclination or the ability to execute aggressive changes quickly.

You score a bull's eye on all four shots

[delben91]

Originally Posted by TaylorStSox

The roster is kind of a mess. I'm in favor of a youth movement, as the core is old and not really that good to begin with.

So you're assuming no offseason acquisitions of any kind?

[Lip Man 1]

Delben:

Depends on what Hahn wants to do and the budget he is allowed to try to do it with.

But I can certainly see a scenario where no meaningful acquisitions are acquired save for some lineup filler's or guys coming off injury willing to take any offer they can.

Lip