White Sox Interactive Forums
Sox Clubhouse
 Soxogram: 
Congratulations on the Rookie records for HR and RBI in April, Jose!

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > Sox Clubhouse
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #76  
Old 07-16-2012, 09:04 PM
Hitmen77 Hitmen77 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,411
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
Gonzo reports the Sox are expected to place Floyd on the DL.
Oh brother. Just when he seem to have turned the corner the last few outings. I hope it's a short stay on the DL.

At least Quintana and Axelrod have given us good starts. I hope Humber is healthy and ready to give us some good starts when he joins us in Minnesota.

I'm not sure if that little blurb at the end of Gonzo's article was reporting progress for Danks or not. He was happy to be throwing, but still sore.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 07-16-2012, 09:18 PM
WhiteSox5187 WhiteSox5187 is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Southside
Posts: 14,356
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
Gonzo reports the Sox are expected to place Floyd on the DL.
This is very bad news. It really shows Buerhle's value, I am not questioning the logic in letting him go or anything but having a guy who is going to take the ball every fifth day no matter what is such a valuable thing to have.
__________________

Go Sox!!!
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 07-16-2012, 10:02 PM
Noneck Noneck is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Nw Side
Posts: 7,212
Default

Humber has to now come back at 100%, maybe they can get by with Sale, Peavy, Humber, Quintana, Axlerod, till Floyd gets back or a deal is made. The pen still worrys me more, Thornton plus the kids scares the living heck out of me.
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 07-16-2012, 10:43 PM
delben91 delben91 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 6,409
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noneck View Post
Humber has to now come back at 100%, maybe they can get by with Sale, Peavy, Humber, Quintana, Axlerod, till Floyd gets back or a deal is made. The pen still worrys me more, Thornton plus the kids scares the living heck out of me.
Crain should be back next week, meaning one of Septimo, Omogrosso or Martinez can go back to AAA.

If Floyd has a short DL stint (retro-active to his last start before the break, so maybe only miss one start?) when he returns, Axelrod can head to the bullpen and one of the others mentioned above can also go to AAA.

Looks like a whole different rotation and bullpen at that point, and that assumes Danks stays out.

In a matter of a week, could look like a very different pitching staff.
__________________
I've been around the world and found that only stupid people are breeding.
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 07-16-2012, 10:59 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chubbuck, Idaho
Posts: 26,378
Default

Delben:

If Floyd goes on the DL (and that now appears likely) he'll miss more than one start because the Sox will certainly send him to Triple A for some work.

This is a strange situation to me especially based on Floyd's quotes today to Gonzo that he didn't think he could go (paraphrasing) 'because he was worried it was going to get worse.' This coming after the MRI showed no structural damage according to Robin.

I wonder what Kenny thought after reading / hearing those comments.

Well if DL'ing him for three weeks (with rehab) clears his mind and enables him to pitch well down the stretch then it's best to do so rather than try to force him to pitch when he's obviously not comfortable with the idea.

But all things considered Kenny has got to make moves and get help, he can't afford to make the mistake Scheuler did in 2000 when the staff was breaking down and he went out and got Baines and Charles Johnson at the deadline.

The Sox paid for that error in judgment in September, in the playoffs and then in 2001 because of all the surgeries.

Lip

Last edited by Lip Man 1; 07-16-2012 at 11:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #81  
Old 07-16-2012, 11:56 PM
delben91 delben91 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 6,409
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Delben:

If Floyd goes on the DL (and that now appears likely) he'll miss more than one start because the Sox will certainly send him to Triple A for some work.

This is a strange situation to me especially based on Floyd's quotes today to Gonzo that he didn't think he could go (paraphrasing) 'because he was worried it was going to get worse.' This coming after the MRI showed no structural damage according to Robin.

I wonder what Kenny thought after reading / hearing those comments.

Well if DL'ing him for three weeks (with rehab) clears his mind and enables him to pitch well down the stretch then it's best to do so rather than try to force him to pitch when he's obviously not comfortable with the idea.

But all things considered Kenny has got to make moves and get help, he can't afford to make the mistake Scheuler did in 2000 when the staff was breaking down and he went out and got Baines and Charles Johnson at the deadline.

The Sox paid for that error in judgment in September, in the playoffs and then in 2001 because of all the surgeries.

Lip
I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure what indicates the 30-day DL is necessary (since you're saying 3 weeks, that's more than the 15-day). Would think they'd start with 15-day and just extend it if needed.
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 07-17-2012, 05:45 AM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 18,221
Blog Entries: 1
Default

Lip, the 2000 Sox lost to Seattle because they could not hit in the ALDS. They pitched fine in that series. I am not saying it would have held up, but in that series the pitching was adequate while the hitting was atrocious.

In 2001, KW got one of the best starters available in trade (Wells), but he got hurt. Their best hitter also missed most of the year. I don't know how much more could have been done then.
__________________
The universe is the practical joke of the General at the expense of the Particular, quoth Frater Perdurabo, and laughed. The disciples nearest him wept, seeing the Universal Sorrow. Others laughed, seeing the Universal Joke. Others wept. Others laughed. Others wept because they couldn't see the Joke, and others laughed lest they should be thought not to see the Joke. But though FRATER laughed openly, he wept secretly; and really he neither laughed nor wept. Nor did he mean what he said.
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 07-17-2012, 10:12 AM
Harry Chappas Harry Chappas is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Logan Square
Posts: 666
Default

What's the latest on Danks? I don't recall hearing much about him.
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 07-17-2012, 10:56 AM
shingo10 shingo10 is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 824
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Chappas View Post
What's the latest on Danks? I don't recall hearing much about him.

He threw from 90 feet yesterday for the first time in a long time. He said he still felt sore but that things are "definitely moving in the right direction." I really, really hope he is right.
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 07-17-2012, 11:23 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chubbuck, Idaho
Posts: 26,378
Default

Frater:

Briefly...the Sox scored four runs and had the lead late in game #1. That was more than enough to win the game. Win that game and you potentially change the entire series.

Schueler didn't get pitching which was badly needed...which forced the rest of the pitchers into heavier loads...which resulted in guys breaking down (Sirotka and Parque) in September to go along with guys like Baldwin and Eldred who were already hurt and / or missed time.

The bullpen guys also got extended and hurt (Wunsch, Howry, Simas).

The Sox had if memory is correct a half dozen pitchers go under the knife when all was said and done.

Sirotka, Parque, Simas and Wunsch were never the same again or didn't pitch anymore after it.

And that wasn't Williams by the way that was Schueler.

At the time of the trade deadline Eldred was already out with the elbow and Baldwin was starting to have issues. In fact Baldwin would miss a month of the second half of that year and was pitching on guts the rest of the time when he did return.

I do not want to see the Sox in the same situation again if it can be helped remember Peavy probably isn't returning next year and Floyd can be a free agent if the Sox don't invoke the option (again if I remember correctly...)

Delbin:

My correct was based on how long he'd probably be out...not on what type of DL he's placed on.

Lip

Last edited by Lip Man 1; 07-17-2012 at 12:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 07-17-2012, 11:46 AM
doublem23's Avatar
doublem23 doublem23 is offline
MMXXIII
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Roscoe Village
Posts: 54,172
Blog Entries: 5
Default

I can't believe anyone thinks it was a mistake for Schueler to hold his ground in 2000 and not empty the farm system, considering many of the brightest prospects he surely would have had to have given away wound up being key cogs in that Sox team in 2005, which did pretty well, IIRC.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 07-17-2012, 12:08 PM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
WSI Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chubbuck, Idaho
Posts: 26,378
Default

It all would have depended on what other teams were asking for which no one except Schueler knows for sure.

Some clubs might have wanted higher prospects, some lower ones, we don't know.

We do know that Sox pitchers were falling left and right and the inactivity not only hurt the 2000 season but also gutted the 2001 season and ended careers.

In a perfect situation, if the Sox say went to the World Series every eight to 10 years or regularly made the playoffs then I understand the point completely.

History shows though the Sox don't do it for whatever reason or reasons, so when the opportunity comes along, you have to go for it in my opinion.

It's an interesting debate point though.

History does show though that Schueler was overconservative with his prospects in general during his tenure. Most of them never worked out (as most minor leaguers fall into that category...) You can make the case that philosophy also cost potential postseason appearances in 1991 and 1996. You can't win a World Series if you never get there in the first place.

I recall Jack McDowell telling me along the lines that the Sox had some very good teams in the 90's but were always "one player short somewhere" and that seemed to always wind up killing them.

Lip

Last edited by Lip Man 1; 07-17-2012 at 12:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 07-17-2012, 12:12 PM
doublem23's Avatar
doublem23 doublem23 is offline
MMXXIII
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Roscoe Village
Posts: 54,172
Blog Entries: 5
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
History shows though the Sox don't do it for whatever reason or reasons, so when the opportunity comes along, you have to go for it in my opinion.

It's an interesting debate point though.
That's a fine point that I generally agree with, but ultimately hindsight in this situation, I would think, has to prove that Schueler accurately scouted his own prospects and deemed it was better in the long haul to hold on to them rather than push all the chips in with a deeply flawed 2000 team.

Just my
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 07-17-2012, 01:11 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 18,221
Blog Entries: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
Frater:

Briefly...the Sox scored four runs and had the lead late in game #1. That was more than enough to win the game. Win that game and you potentially change the entire series.

Schueler didn't get pitching which was badly needed...which forced the rest of the pitchers into heavier loads...which resulted in guys breaking down (Sirotka and Parque) in September to go along with guys like Baldwin and Eldred who were already hurt and / or missed time.

The bullpen guys also got extended and hurt (Wunsch, Howry, Simas).

The Sox had if memory is correct a half dozen pitchers go under the knife when all was said and done.

Sirotka, Parque, Simas and Wunsch were never the same again or didn't pitch anymore after it.

And that wasn't Williams by the way that was Schueler.

At the time of the trade deadline Eldred was already out with the elbow and Baldwin was starting to have issues. In fact Baldwin would miss a month of the second half of that year and was pitching on guts the rest of the time when he did return.

I do not want to see the Sox in the same situation again if it can be helped remember Peavy probably isn't returning next year and Floyd can be a free agent if the Sox don't invoke the option (again if I remember correctly...)

Delbin:

My correct was based on how long he'd probably be out...not on what type of DL he's placed on.

Lip
All great points, Lip, and I remember most of that as much as you, and I agree that Schueler should have gotten more pitching at the deadline in 2000. But it was the lack of hitting in games 2 and 3 specifically that killed the Sox in that short ALDS. I'm not sure more or better pitching would have been enough to overcome the bad hitting in that series. Was more pitching needed? Yes. But you also need to score runs and the Sox offense, which had no problems scoring throughout 2000, failed to do so in the ALDS.

Given the sorry state of our pitching going into the 2001 season, upon earning the GM title, KW made the right move on paper by acquiring Wells for Sirotka, who would never pitch again.
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 07-17-2012, 01:28 PM
Frater Perdurabo Frater Perdurabo is offline
WSI Prelate
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 18,221
Blog Entries: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by doublem23 View Post
That's a fine point that I generally agree with, but ultimately hindsight in this situation, I would think, has to prove that Schueler accurately scouted his own prospects and deemed it was better in the long haul to hold on to them rather than push all the chips in with a deeply flawed 2000 team.

Just my
I think you are right that Schueler was correct not to trade away young prospects like Rowand, Crede, Garland, Buehrle, etc. in 2000, as they became cogs of the 2005 team.

But the hindsight of history also shows Schueler was wrong in 1991, 92, 93, 96 and 97, not to acquire needed bats or arms by trading his prized draft choice prospects that usually amounted to nothing. As I recall, the only Sox-developed prospects that did pan out during the 90s (after the Larry Himes wave of drafted/acquired talent that included McDowell, Ventura, Frank, Fernandez, Alvarez, Hernandez and Baldwin) were Ray Durham and Mike Cameron (whom he did deal for PK, a move that worked out pretty well).

So, both Doub and Lip are correct. In honor of Jerry Manuel, let's go have ice cream.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:12 AM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.