Viciedo

[Daver]

Originally Posted by Rdy2PlayBall

If he continues to have plate discipline issues, he's not going to be very good, but he is still young and has a few years to get things together. He can still be as young as most of the prospects that start coming to the majors (with a year or two more of work).

If he can put together the kind of average and OBP Alexei can get (walks were similar with the stats I showed), then he can end up a decent player, with the potential to have All-Star numbers. This year wasn't a step in the right direction, but it might have something to do with working multiple positions and moving up to the majors, I don't know. I'll still give him a year before I start to think he will be a "bust", because his issue that needs to be fixed isn't a mechanical or physical one... just a mental one. (may be a good, or bad thing). Like all prospects, we need to give him some time to develop.

The question mark is who is doing the developing, it is the same instructors that failed to develop Borchard, Fields, Anderson, Flowers,and Jeremy Reed to name a few.

[Craig Grebeck]

Originally Posted by Rdy2PlayBall

If he continues to have plate discipline issues, he's not going to be very good, but he is still young and has a few years to get things together. He can still be as young as most of the prospects that start coming to the majors (with a year or two more of work).

If he can put together the kind of average and OBP Alexei can get (walks were similar with the stats I showed), then he can end up a decent player, with the potential to have All-Star numbers. This year wasn't a step in the right direction, but it might have something to do with working multiple positions and moving up to the majors, I don't know. I'll still give him a year before I start to think he will be a "bust", because his issue that needs to be fixed isn't a mechanical or physical one... just a mental one. (may be a good, or bad thing). Like all prospects, we need to give him some time to develop.

I didn't say they were similar, I said they both have problems with walking, and Alexei is still effective. I also said Viciedo still needs work. It was an example of a player that was okay to good offensively, yet walked only about 20 times. There is no doubt he is going to need to lay of the breaking stuff more, but it's not going to take a huge revamping of his approach for him to be successful in the majors.

Alexei is effective because he is a middle infielder. The likelihood that a player can improve his plate discipline is very, very small; it just doesn't happen very often.

[DirtySox]

Originally Posted by Rdy2PlayBall

I didn't say they were similar, I said they both have problems with walking, and Alexei is still effective. I also said Viciedo still needs work. It was an example of a player that was okay to good offensively, yet walked only about 20 times. There is no doubt he is going to need to lay of the breaking stuff more, but it's not going to take a huge revamping of his approach for him to be successful in the majors.

It might not take a huge revamping for him to be a successful major leaguer if he manages to hit many home runs, but a move to 1B comes with it increased offensive expectations which I'm unsure he can fulfill.

His numbers would be much more acceptable if he could stick at 3B and provide at least passable defense.

The comparison with Alexei and Dayan doesn't work for me as a large part of Alexei's value comes with him playing a premium defensive position adequately.

[Daver]

Originally Posted by Craig Grebeck

Alexei is effective because he is a middle infielder. The likelihood that a player can improve his plate discipline is very, very small; it just doesn't happen very often.

Joe Crede, Robin Ventura, Mark Johnson, Aaron Rowand, Carlos Lee, and Chris Getz all managed to improve their plate discipline significantly, and that is just off the top of my head. Improving plate discipline is not that difficult a task.

[Craig Grebeck]

Originally Posted by Daver

Joe Crede, Robin Ventura, Mark Johnson, Aaron Rowand, Carlos Lee, and Chris Getz all managed to improve their plate discipline significantly, and that is just off the top of my head. Improving plate discipline is not that difficult a task.

Carlos -- yes, I agree with that. Rowand too. But I don't believe Getz, Ventura, or Johnson were as awful as Viciedo is at pitch recognition.

[Rdy2PlayBall]

Originally Posted by Craig Grebeck

Alexei is effective because he is a middle infielder. The likelihood that a player can improve his plate discipline is very, very small; it just doesn't happen very often.

True, but Dayan has the added power, so if he can get 30 HRs a year, then that would also make him effective as a 1B or DH.

Plate discipline can be a hard thing to fix, but I was trying to use Alexei as an example of a player to doubled his walks in one season. This year, he is walking less than last year, yet, he is still effective with his higher batting average. Dayan is definitely going to need some work, and hopefully the coaches that were unable to fix previous Sox prospects, will have more luck with him.

Originally Posted by Craig Grebeck

Carlos -- yes, I agree with that. Rowand too. But I don't believe Getz, Ventura, or Johnson were as awful as Viciedo is at pitch recognition.

Maybe his problem isn't recognition, but he just thinks he can hit anything close? He is a very agressive hitter, maybe it will just take calming him down a bit.

[Daver]

Originally Posted by Craig Grebeck

Carlos -- yes, I agree with that. Rowand too. But I don't believe Getz, Ventura, or Johnson were as awful as Viciedo is at pitch recognition.

Believe what you want, I've seen the tape.

Without Hriniak Robin would have failed at the MLB level.

[Craig Grebeck]

Originally Posted by Daver

Believe what you want, I've seen the tape.

Without Hriniak Robin would have failed at the MLB level.

Fair enough. I'm much too young to remember, so I'll defer to your wisdom.

Hopefully the minor league instructors at Charlotte have Walt's ability.

[A. Cavatica]

Originally Posted by guillensdisciple

Someone will teach him discipline, and then he can explode as a hitter.

Can you cite one example of a player Viciedo's age who suddenly learned plate discipline?

This is something you learn in little league. You don't learn it at the big league level.

[khan]

Originally Posted by Daver

Believe what you want, I've seen the tape.

Without Hriniak Robin would have failed at the MLB level.

I'd have to agree with this as well, from my recollection.



Besides Viciedo, there are a few other SOX "prospects" that K too damn much, relative to their BB numbers. [Thinking of Danks, Flowers, Retherford started to K too much this year, Shelby, Gilmore, and others.]

One wonders if this is an error in terms of scouting/drafting, an error in coaching, or if I'm merely seeing what I think is an issue where there really isn't one.

[doublem23]

Originally Posted by A. Cavatica

Can you cite one example of a player Viciedo's age who suddenly learned plate discipline?

This is something you learn in little league. You don't learn it at the big league level.

Are you kidding me, man, he's 21 years old.

When we talk about learning plate discipline, we're not saying he's ever going to lead the league in BB or OBP, he just needs to learn how to not go up to the plate hacking at everything.

[NardiWasHere]

I find it hard to believe that a baseball player that young has never improved their plate discipline. Its definitely something that can be worked on.

[A. Cavatica]

Originally Posted by doublem23

Are you kidding me, man, he's 21 years old.

When we talk about learning plate discipline, we're not saying he's ever going to lead the league in BB or OBP, he just needs to learn how to not go up to the plate hacking at everything.

So find an example. Dayan has drawn no walks in his first 82 major league at-bats. Find a player who started off with that kind of atrocious plate discipline who improved to league average.

[A. Cavatica]

Originally Posted by A. Cavatica

So find an example. Dayan has drawn no walks in his first 82 major league at-bats. Find a player who started off with that kind of atrocious plate discipline who improved to league average.

I'll throw in an example of what I expect. I remember a 21-year old rookie whose OBP was only .012 above his BA in his first season -- 12 walks in a full season. Smart player, mediocre batting average with basically no power, the kind of a player who you'd think would really cultivate his batting eye to increase his value at the plate.

In subsequent seasons that player had walk totals of 12, 22, 25, 15, 26, 11, 10, 14, 13, 10, and 22, until he got to his mid-thirties and lost his starting job. Only then did he start to walk at a reasonable rate; he had two seasons where he had similar walk totals (over half as many at-bats) and then he was all done.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...uilloz01.shtml

[Frater Perdurabo]

Isn't part of "plate discipline" really a matter of pitch recognition?

He's only in his second season of baseball in the U.S., and had his MLB debut this year. I think it's safe to say:

1. His pitch recognition skills have not been developed;

2. With proper coaching, he should be able to learn to recognize pitches better.

Once he learns to recognize pitches better, he will become more selective. No one is saying he's going to have Frank Thomas' discipline, but one doesn't have to have Frank's discipline to be a great hitter. Vlad Guerrero seemingly swings at everything but he's able to hit stuff all over the zone because he's good at recognizing the pitch.