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  #46  
Old 01-16-2009, 09:06 PM
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Daver Daver is offline
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Originally Posted by jabrch View Post
How good a SS do you think he'd be after not playing the position for a few years?
He'd still be the best SS in game overall.
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  #47  
Old 01-17-2009, 12:47 AM
jabrch jabrch is offline
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Originally Posted by Daver View Post
He'd still be the best SS in game overall.
I'd be curious to watch him field the position. We know his offense would be top, but I'd want to see him play D before putting him ahead of Hanley Ramirez or even Jose Reyes.
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  #48  
Old 01-17-2009, 03:04 AM
BadBobbyJenks BadBobbyJenks is offline
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Originally Posted by jabrch View Post
I'd be curious to watch him field the position. We know his offense would be top, but I'd want to see him play D before putting him ahead of Hanley Ramirez or even Jose Reyes.
Well Hanley is pretty bad defensively at short.
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  #49  
Old 01-17-2009, 08:22 AM
Craig Grebeck Craig Grebeck is offline
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Originally Posted by BadBobbyJenks View Post
Well Hanley is pretty bad defensively at short.
He (supposedly) made some pretty amazing strides this season.
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  #50  
Old 01-17-2009, 11:53 AM
Lip Man 1 Lip Man 1 is offline
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Craig:

Allow me to clarify my intentions since I think you have misunderstood them, then I've got to clean up and head out to the gameday shoot around.

My interest in Flowers is purely based upon the fact that this deal for better or worse is going to impact the 2009 White Sox. (I suspect it will be the second possibility.) Not in how it will impact the Sox minor league system.

The "key" to this deal in Kenny's own words was getting Flowers as a "potential future All Star caliber catcher." (and an important secondary reason to remove Vazquez's salary off the books and help trim payroll.)

Will those signed to replace Javy's average numbers (12 wins, 200 innings) be able to do so? We'll see. Will Flowers ever become an "All-Star caliber catcher?" we'll see.

History shows that Kenny has not had success regarding the Sox minor league system overall since he was involved in it beginning in the late 90's...that's a fact not speculation.

His best success has come in shipping off these (in my opinion) overhyped prospects to get real, actual, major league players who have demonstrated some success at the big league level. That is his strength and that is what he should continue to do in my opinion because history shows that's the only thing that's worked.

At this point in time I have no reason to think that Flowers will be anything but another in this line. I wasn't searching for the scouts comments on Chicago Tribune Live! I tape it everyday and scan through it to get Sox news. I found it very interesting that they did not regard Flowers in the same vein that apparently Kenny does (through his own directly commented words.)

I will be watching to see how this deal turns out both in the future (say three years) but more importantly this year, because Vazquez and his 12 or so wins and 200 innings is not here anymore replace by more "maybe's" and the possibility (how large I don't know) of getting an "All-Star caliber catcher."

It doesn't mean that I am contradicting myself in my opinion on minor leaguers in general or the Sox minor league system. I am however very interested to see if this ultimately goes into the success or failure column for Kenny.

Lip
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  #51  
Old 01-17-2009, 03:42 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Originally Posted by Craig Grebeck View Post
He (supposedly) made some pretty amazing strides this season.
Yes, but he's still not in A-Rod's class defensively.
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  #52  
Old 01-17-2009, 10:23 PM
KyWhiSoxFan KyWhiSoxFan is offline
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Originally Posted by Lip Man 1 View Post
I will be watching to see how this deal turns out both in the future (say three years) but more importantly this year, because Vazquez and his 12 or so wins and 200 innings is not here anymore replace by more "maybe's" and the possibility (how large I don't know) of getting an "All-Star caliber catcher."
Vazquez's 12 wins came in 33 starts. He was 4 games under .500 and had a losing record on a team that won 88 games, and he was the only starting pitcher with a losing record (of the five starters who started the season). He made $11.5-million a year. He will not be missed.

The value was getting rid of him, his losing record, big salary, and inability to pitch under any kind of pressure. What they got for him is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. The point is KW was able to find someone to take $23-million in salary off the Sox books and still get some players in return that may--or may not--make it to the majors. This is addition by subtraction (the team's ability to manage their payroll).

When people just toss around players and inning eaten or Ks or what have you, you have to keep in mind what production you get for that money. The Sox were not getting anything of substance from Vazquez for the kind of money they were paying him. 11 and half million is a lot of money.
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  #53  
Old 01-17-2009, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by KyWhiSoxFan View Post
Vazquez's 12 wins came in 33 starts. He was 4 games under .500 and had a losing record on a team that won 88 games, and he was the only starting pitcher with a losing record (of the five starters who started the season). He made $11.5-million a year. He will not be missed.

The value was getting rid of him, his losing record, big salary, and inability to pitch under any kind of pressure. What they got for him is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.
Starting pitching is the most valuable commodity in all of baseball, pitchers that throw 200+ innings a year don't grow on trees, and the Sox haven't been able to produce one from their system in a long time.
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  #54  
Old 01-17-2009, 11:46 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
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Starting pitching is the most valuable commodity in all of baseball, pitchers that throw 200+ innings a year don't grow on trees, and the Sox haven't been able to produce one from their system in a long time.
You're both right in this case. Javy had worn out his welcome with his anti-clutch performances, but still ate up innings and had his fair share of brilliant games. KW rolled the dice, who knows what will be the result?
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  #55  
Old 01-19-2009, 08:42 AM
NLaloosh NLaloosh is offline
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I think the Sox are okay here. I'm pretty sure that Clayton Richard could take the ball every 5th day and throw 190 innings at nearly the effectiveness of Vazquez. Yes, Javy has much better stuff but he was such a disappointment and especially in meaningful games.

I would rather have a combination and depth of Colon, Richard, Contreras and hopefully Garcia and Marti and the return on Javy than have Javy back for his salary.

In my opinion, the Sox have almost the same chance of winning with Vazquez or Richard on the hill.
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  #56  
Old 01-19-2009, 11:30 PM
oeo oeo is offline
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Originally Posted by NLaloosh View Post
I think the Sox are okay here. I'm pretty sure that Clayton Richard could take the ball every 5th day and throw 190 innings at nearly the effectiveness of Vazquez. Yes, Javy has much better stuff but he was such a disappointment and especially in meaningful games.

I would rather have a combination and depth of Colon, Richard, Contreras and hopefully Garcia and Marti and the return on Javy than have Javy back for his salary.

In my opinion, the Sox have almost the same chance of winning with Vazquez or Richard on the hill.
Over the course of a 162 game season? No way.

And Clayton Richard needs to learn how to get out of the fourth inning before I'm going to expect 190 innings from him.
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  #57  
Old 01-20-2009, 09:51 AM
NLaloosh NLaloosh is offline
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Originally Posted by oeo View Post
Over the course of a 162 game season? No way.

And Clayton Richard needs to learn how to get out of the fourth inning before I'm going to expect 190 innings from him.
After all these years Vazquez still needs to learn how to get out of the fifth inning.
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