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  #16  
Old 11-03-2008, 05:43 PM
hellview hellview is offline
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Originally Posted by Daver View Post
Compared to what?

The Twins spend less than them by far and have a far superior farm system from the bottom up. A farm system is not rated by a handful of good players by anyone other than fantasy baseball players.

But please continue to cling to your delusion that overpaying for prospects is the way to a winning farm system.
Listen to what I'm saying. If you don't have good scouts like the Twins who can consistanly find good talent throughout the draft. Spending money covers that up. You get that top talent that falls or is repped by Boras. You can sign away those guys from strong college commiments or what to return to college.

It seems that every organization in baseball has realized the current gold in baseball is young cheap prospects except the White Sox.

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You are truly hilarious. Danks is overrated, but is ripping the **** out of the Arizona Fall League. He also had a solid debut and did well in independent ball prior to signing.
AFL numbers are about as useless as Spring Training numbers. There's a reason Danks fell that far and it had nothing to do with his agent or asking price.
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  #17  
Old 11-03-2008, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by hellview View Post
Listen to what I'm saying. If you don't have good scouts like the Twins who can consistanly find good talent throughout the draft. Spending money covers that up. You get that top talent that falls or is repped by Boras. You can sign away those guys from strong college commiments or what to return to college.

It seems that every organization in baseball has realized the current gold in baseball is young cheap prospects except the White Sox.
Suffice it to say I am damn glad you don't work for the White Sox.

That may be the stupidest approach to fixing the problem that has ever been posted here.
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  #18  
Old 11-03-2008, 06:10 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Suffice it to say I am damn glad you don't work for the White Sox.

That may be the stupidest approach to fixing the problem that has ever been posted here.
So, I have to know. You have no problem with the fact the White Sox ignore any prospect with Boras as their agent, spend in the bottom 5 teams every year on the draft and constantly pass on high talent but pricey sign guys and end up with low ceiling easy sign prospects. You are saying you have no problem with Lance Broadway over Matt Garza, Porcello over Poreda, Kyle Mcculoch so on and so fourth?

I agree, we need better scouts, we need a new approach to development, but this idea you can draft cheap and be fine is horrible.
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  #19  
Old 11-03-2008, 06:24 PM
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Suffice it to say I am damn glad you don't work for the White Sox.

That may be the stupidest approach to fixing the problem that has ever been posted here.
I love how you don't propose a soluation to the weak farm system. I'm giving an idea how to turn this farm system around in a hurry. Is getting new scouts a step in the right direction...yes. But unless your getting proven guys from other organizations with strong track records it's going to take years to know if the new scouts picks actually pan out. In the mean time instead they can start spending some god damn money on the draft. Take Boras guys, take chances on tough signs and take some risks.

Adding a few new coaches isn't gonna change anything if your not signing or drafting the right guy from the get go.
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  #20  
Old 11-03-2008, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
So, I have to know. You have no problem with the fact the White Sox ignore any prospect with Boras as their agent, spend in the bottom 5 teams every year on the draft and constantly pass on high talent but pricey sign guys and end up with low ceiling easy sign prospects. You are saying you have no problem with Lance Broadway over Matt Garza, Porcello over Poreda, Kyle Mcculoch so on and so fourth?

I agree, we need better scouts, we need a new approach to development, but this idea you can draft cheap and be fine is horrible.
You are putting words in my mouth, and you're wrong, both at the same time.
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  #21  
Old 11-03-2008, 06:26 PM
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You are putting words in my mouth, and you're wrong, both at the same time.
Then what would your solution be to the farm system?
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  #22  
Old 11-03-2008, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by hellview View Post
I love how you don't propose a soluation to the weak farm system. I'm giving an idea how to turn this farm system around in a hurry. Is getting new scouts a step in the right direction...yes. But unless your getting proven guys from other organizations with strong track records it's going to take years to know if the new scouts picks actually pan out. In the mean time instead they can start spending some god damn money on the draft. Take Boras guys, take chances on tough signs and take some risks.

Adding a few new coaches isn't gonna change anything if your not signing or drafting the right guy from the get go.

You're not turning around a damn thing, you are making a bad situation worse, and you can't even grasp that you're doing it. I repeat, it is a damn good thing your employer is not the Chicago White Sox.
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  #23  
Old 11-03-2008, 06:32 PM
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You're not turning around a damn thing, you are making a bad situation worse, and you can't even grasp that you're doing it. I repeat, it is a damn good thing your employer is not the Chicago White Sox.
Then man up and please tell me how I'm making ti worse and what's your solution to fxing the farm system.

I don't feel like I"m asking alot here...
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  #24  
Old 11-03-2008, 06:41 PM
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Then man up and please tell me how I'm making ti worse and what's your solution to fxing the farm system.

I don't feel like I"m asking alot here...
Use the search feature, I already answered it once.
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  #25  
Old 11-03-2008, 06:42 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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You are truly hilarious. Danks is overrated, but is ripping the **** out of the Arizona Fall League. He also had a solid debut and did well in independent ball prior to signing.

Poreda is merely a left-handed set-up guy, despite dominating every level thus far as a starting pitcher. Meanwhile, you are already projecting Rick Porcello to be a top of the rotation guy.

Also, you can't say this was a bad draft. We won't be able to rank it for years, but if you aren't impressed with Carter, Beckham, Danks, and others at this point, you're kidding yourself. We made some good decisions the last two seasons; they won't show for a few years, but it doesn't make them any less worthy.
How do you not understand this. Jordan Danks, if the sox did not let him slip away in high school, and he was not Johns brother, maybe Sox fans would stop over rating him. He hit in the .320s in college. In the purest, simplest breakdown I can, if you don't hit in the mid .400s or better in high school you probably will not succeed at D1 ball level. When you get to College, to be a top prospect, you should hit in the high .300's to low .400s. Hitting in the low .300s is just not impressive from the collegiate level because most teams do not field strong defenses. Danks at best is going to be a pretty good lead off hitter. Less speed then a Pods but more doubles. He doesn't have the leg stride that allows him to max his power potential, and that was exploited in college. He is a plus defender with a good arm, good speed, pretty good eye and decent bat control. If you think he is anywhere near a top flight prospect you are only fooling yourself.

Poreda vs Porcello, I wouldn't even get into this arguement with me because you are going to be coming unarmed. Poreda was great in rookie ball, yes, throwing a 97 mph fastball by a bunch of guys who are now using their college degrees for employment. He pitched ok in Single A, but for a guy with his velocity he does not possess a strike out pitch beyond a fastball. He has a below average Curveball so bad hes trying to develop a slider but neither are a strike out pitch. He won't do well in high levels of the minors without a breaking ball. Without the breaking ball he also will never last as a closer. Look at Bobby Jenks, and how he dominated when he lost his velo, with a cutter and that nasty yacker.

Poreda was drafted for various reasons. He is tall, throws very hard, and he isn't a BAD prospect. however, he was an easy sign who was not using the services of Boras.

Rick Porcello on the other hand: He was the TOP prep prospect since probably Josh Beckett. He throws 90-94 steady and touches 96 97 when he wants too. He throws a SINKER at 94, and 2 different Curveballs. Both with the same drop, one sitting in the 80s the other low 70s. He has a slider/slurve that he uses to set up a lot of stuff that if he gets down to a 2 plain slider could be the best pitch he throws. His changeup is filthy. Add to the fact he can throw these for Strikes when he wants, and yes, I believe (as does every prospect rating system in baseball) that he is one of the top 6-10 pitching prospects in baseball and one of the top 20 prospects in the game. You don't have to believe me, look at baseball america, espn, rotoworld, any place, Porcello is top 20 prospect, usually sitting in the 8-12 range. Poreda usually in the 60-80 range.

There were 2 reasons only we did not draft Rick Porcello. He was asking for good draft money, and his agent was Scott Boras. Not only will passing on him haunt us, it will several times a year when we have to face him.
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  #26  
Old 11-03-2008, 06:46 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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You are putting words in my mouth, and you're wrong, both at the same time.
I don't think I am wrong, I was asking where you stood. To me, I look at it like this. Because of signability and agents, we have Lance Broadway Kyle Mcculloch and Aaron Poreda and not Matt Garza (anyone but Kyle) and Porcello. I have a huge issue with that. HUGE!
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  #27  
Old 11-03-2008, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Domeshot17 View Post
I don't think I am wrong, I was asking where you stood. To me, I look at it like this. Because of signability and agents, we have Lance Broadway Kyle Mcculloch and Aaron Poreda and not Matt Garza (anyone but Kyle) and Porcello. I have a huge issue with that. HUGE!
I'm sorry you have issues, perhaps seek help from someone experienced with working with emotional problems?

Overpaying for unproven talent is a pretty stupid approach to an overall lack of usable talent in your system.
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  #28  
Old 11-03-2008, 07:14 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Originally Posted by Daver View Post
I'm sorry you have issues, perhaps seek help from someone experienced with working with emotional problems?

Overpaying for unproven talent is a pretty stupid approach to an overall lack of usable talent in your system.
Well, you must be Kenny Williams, because as long as they do it the cheap, foolish way they still have that you strongly support, we will continue to have one of the 5 worst farm systems in baseball.

Sometimes I wonder if you actually believe half of what you spew.
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  #29  
Old 11-03-2008, 07:25 PM
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Sometimes I wonder if you actually believe half of what you spew.
Likewise I'm sure, even moreso in fact.


Exactly how does overpaying for a player that may never play at the MLB level improve the overall quality of players in your system and how they are developed? Your approach is putting a bandaid on severed limb and telling the patient to take some Robotussin.
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  #30  
Old 11-03-2008, 08:07 PM
Domeshot17 Domeshot17 is offline
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Likewise I'm sure, even moreso in fact.


Exactly how does overpaying for a player that may never play at the MLB level improve the overall quality of players in your system and how they are developed? Your approach is putting a bandaid on severed limb and telling the patient to take some Robotussin.
See, this is again where we disagree. I am not saying our entire process is not bad. I am saying, if we are going to make the commitment to bring in better coaches, to bring in Buddy Bell to oversee the process. To change not only the structure, but the philosophy in how we bring players along(which may start with ideas such as not bouncing starting pitchers from league to league so they can get some real work done), then we are we not making the stance to fill it with the players who can be the best. No team is perfect, no draft is perfect. If every draft produces a handful of good prospects it ultimately is a success. However, we are not a poor team. We have the money to sign a guy for 7 mil. 7 mil, we pissed half that away on Darrin Erstad. The scouts job is to determine what players are worth that big money. But when a top 5 talent, a Porcello falls into your lap, and you let him go to your division rival because you are scared to spend money in the draft, its unacceptable. I am not saying we have to spend the most money in the league, but we should be in the top 15, we have the resources to do it.
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