White Sox Interactive Forums
Minor Observations

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > Minor Observations
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-16-2004, 03:25 PM
Wealz Wealz is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 781
Default Sports Weekly Ranks Sox Farm System 29th

I can't find the article online though.

Williams, Shaffer, etc... should be held accountable for the deplorable state of our system.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-16-2004, 03:34 PM
The Tom The Tom is offline
WSI Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 126
Default

That is exactly why i would be a bit weary of giving further young talent up in further trades. Our system needs to be replenished.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-16-2004, 03:35 PM
Randar68 Randar68 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Chicago
Posts: 10,009
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wealz
I can't find the article online though.

Williams, Shaffer, etc... should be held accountable for the deplorable state of our system.
Many of these rankings use depth or W-L records as measures, something the Sox haven't had much of in either of the past several years because they've had to make so many trades.

So, you can take your pick. Sit around for the next 10 years and wait for the prospects to make MLB impacts, or trade them while they're unknown commodities for proven MLB talent. You can't have it both ways, although I'm guessing it won't stop you from bitching about it. I'd like to see where they have the Yankees ranked, because if they're not last, then it immediately invalidates the whole thing.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-16-2004, 04:22 PM
Wealz Wealz is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 781
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randar68
Many of these rankings use depth or W-L records as measures, something the Sox haven't had much of in either of the past several years because they've had to make so many trades.

So, you can take your pick. Sit around for the next 10 years and wait for the prospects to make MLB impacts, or trade them while they're unknown commodities for proven MLB talent. You can't have it both ways, although I'm guessing it won't stop you from bitching about it. I'd like to see where they have the Yankees ranked, because if they're not last, then it immediately invalidates the whole thing.
Reed, Morse, Ring, Francisco, Rupe, Webster, and Quintero were lost in trades. To think those seven were significant enough losses to bankrupt the system is folly.

Where is the top end talent? The system is littered with disappointments and guys who were reaches when drafted. Allen, Borchard, Gonzales, Valido, are the names that spring to mind. Incredibly, Dave Wilder was quoted recently as saying they believe Borchard will be a star. No wonder they're 29th.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-16-2004, 04:28 PM
Randar68 Randar68 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Chicago
Posts: 10,009
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wealz
Reed, Morse, Ring, Francisco, Rupe, Webster, and Quintero were lost in trades. To think those seven were significant enough losses to bankrupt the system is folly.

Where is the top end talent? The system is littered with disappointments and guys who were reaches when drafted. Allen, Borchard, Gonzales, Valido, are the names that spring to mind. Incredibly, Dave Wilder was quoted recently as saying they believe Borchard will be a star. No wonder they're 29th.
Reed was the top prospect in the system when traded, Webster was #4, Francisco is pitching out of the Ranger's bullpen at age 20 (maybe 21) and jumped basically from A-ball. Rupe is a risk/reward prospect, Ring was a first round draft choice (and even if you say he was a reach, which he was, he was no worse than a sadwich pick projection).

The names that spring to mind? Brian Anderson, Ryan Sweeney, Honel and Wing pre-injuries, Brandon McCarthy, Borchard (a Ron Schueler pick, pal), Valido is in his first full season fer chrissakes.

You just don't seem to have any real grasp of the expectations and realistic time-frames that prospects progress/develop at, and it suits your crying and whining tact.

You take half of a team's top 10 prospects and trade them or they are injured within a 12 month window, and no-**** the organization is going to drop in ranking!

Do you go for it now and trade prospects or sit around waiting? KW has shown he's not going to sit around waiting, and that does cost the system, but gives you a better chance to win on the MLB level now. You still didn't answer which you'd prefer, but the first tactic didn't work for Schueler, hopefully the latter works for KW. If they win a WS, are you going to cry and whine about the status of the farm teams?

Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-16-2004, 04:51 PM
Wealz Wealz is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 781
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randar68
Reed was the top prospect in the system when traded, Webster was #4, Francisco is pitching out of the Ranger's bullpen at age 20 (maybe 21) and jumped basically from A-ball. Rupe is a risk/reward prospect, Ring was a first round draft choice (and even if you say he was a reach, which he was, he was no worse than a sadwich pick projection).

The names that spring to mind? Brian Anderson, Ryan Sweeney, Honel and Wing pre-injuries, Brandon McCarthy, Borchard (a Ron Schueler pick, pal), Valido is in his first full season fer chrissakes.

You just don't seem to have any real grasp of the expectations and realistic time-frames that prospects progress/develop at, and it suits your crying and whining tact.

You take half of a team's top 10 prospects and trade them or they are injured within a 12 month window, and no-**** the organization is going to drop in ranking!

Do you go for it now and trade prospects or sit around waiting? KW has shown he's not going to sit around waiting, and that does cost the system, but gives you a better chance to win on the MLB level now. You still didn't answer which you'd prefer, but the first tactic didn't work for Schueler, hopefully the latter works for KW. If they win a WS, are you going to cry and whine about the status of the farm teams?

Honel, Reed, Anderson, and Sweeney. That's it. Four highly touted prospects all taken in the first 50 picks. If a player was drafted outside of the top 50 by Shaffer and his crew history tells us there's a real good chance he can't play. That's unacceptable for a middle-of-the-pack revenue team. Borchard will be a star according to Dave Wilder? The Sox scouting and development is need of an overhaul.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-16-2004, 05:05 PM
maurice maurice is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bridgeport, Chicago, IL
Posts: 7,714
Default

Morse, Francisco, Rupe, Webster, Quintero, Olivo, Munoz, Diaz, McCarthy, Rogowski, Young, Bajenaru, Pacheco, Cotts, and Adkins were not top 50 draft picks by the Sox, IIRC. The prospects KW traded for were not highly touted at the time he acquired them, even if they were drafted in the top 50 by other teams.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-16-2004, 06:07 PM
The Tom The Tom is offline
WSI Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 126
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wealz
Honel, Reed, Anderson, and Sweeney. That's it. Four highly touted prospects all taken in the first 50 picks. If a player was drafted outside of the top 50 by Shaffer and his crew history tells us there's a real good chance he can't play. That's unacceptable for a middle-of-the-pack revenue team. Borchard will be a star according to Dave Wilder? The Sox scouting and development is need of an overhaul.
How about McCarthy, Fields, Lumsden, Gonzalez, and Nanita. Also, Munoz and Rauch arent finished yet. It's hardly fair to say that Borchard is good for nothing after 3 games with the big club. Walker has worked wonders with our offens, he could do Borchard some good. Also Cotts and Diaz have both shown flashes and havent been given an opportunity to settle in and pitch. Every start or appearance for them determines whether theyll get another appearance. That's a lot of added pressure to an already stressful situation. WE HAVE GUYS, GIVE THEM SOME TIME.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-26-2004, 08:11 PM
Mohoney Mohoney is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palos Hills, IL
Posts: 5,309
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randar68
Reed was the top prospect in the system when traded, Webster was #4, Francisco is pitching out of the Ranger's bullpen at age 20 (maybe 21) and jumped basically from A-ball. Rupe is a risk/reward prospect, Ring was a first round draft choice (and even if you say he was a reach, which he was, he was no worse than a sadwich pick projection).

The names that spring to mind? Brian Anderson, Ryan Sweeney, Honel and Wing pre-injuries, Brandon McCarthy, Borchard (a Ron Schueler pick, pal), Valido is in his first full season fer chrissakes.

You just don't seem to have any real grasp of the expectations and realistic time-frames that prospects progress/develop at, and it suits your crying and whining tact.

You take half of a team's top 10 prospects and trade them or they are injured within a 12 month window, and no-**** the organization is going to drop in ranking!

Do you go for it now and trade prospects or sit around waiting? KW has shown he's not going to sit around waiting, and that does cost the system, but gives you a better chance to win on the MLB level now. You still didn't answer which you'd prefer, but the first tactic didn't work for Schueler, hopefully the latter works for KW. If they win a WS, are you going to cry and whine about the status of the farm teams?

Several good points in this post, the strongest point being that Williams didn't draft Borchard. Another strong point is that we gave up some good pitching in Ring, Rupe, and Francisco in trades last year.

Plus, a few of our "prospects" such as Cotts and Adkins are at the MLB level, being rushed in their development to fill pressing needs, and are not factored into the equation.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I am really enamored with our '03 and '04 drafts, and I think that Kenny Williams has shown a lot of potential as a guy who can draft well. This means that, while we never seem top-heavy with AAA talent because we're making trades to better our parent club, our cupboard will continually be restocked.

Kenny Williams is really trying his damndest to run a solid organization while operating with a bottom-third payroll. In my opinion, he's doing it better than Ron Schueler ever did.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horsemaster Fred
This is the major leagues so get it how you live and letís fight tomorrow.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-27-2004, 10:20 AM
gosox41 gosox41 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chicago
Posts: 5,027
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney
Several good points in this post, the strongest point being that Williams didn't draft Borchard. Another strong point is that we gave up some good pitching in Ring, Rupe, and Francisco in trades last year.

Plus, a few of our "prospects" such as Cotts and Adkins are at the MLB level, being rushed in their development to fill pressing needs, and are not factored into the equation.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I am really enamored with our '03 and '04 drafts, and I think that Kenny Williams has shown a lot of potential as a guy who can draft well. This means that, while we never seem top-heavy with AAA talent because we're making trades to better our parent club, our cupboard will continually be restocked.

Kenny Williams is really trying his damndest to run a solid organization while operating with a bottom-third payroll. In my opinion, he's doing it better than Ron Schueler ever did.
A couple of points:

1. The Sox are not in the bottom third in payroll. I thought I read somewhere that they are 12th in the majors, but even if it's slightly lower then that they do not have the 20th highest payroll in the league.

2. Time will tell with the Sox 2003 and 2004 draft. But what about 2000-2002? Also, is some here say KW is not running the draft then why give him any credit? Pesonally I think he is. He hires the baseball people around him who share his philosophy.

3. Cotts and Adkins...don't get me started on them. Both were part of bad trades. Cotts is more of a prospect but when the Sox got Adkins he was a 24 year old AAA pitcher with a bad shoulder. Now he's a 26 year old right handed releiver who just isn't all that good.

I'm definitely not as high on Cotts as some are around here. But I'm not willing to give up on him yet.


Bob
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-27-2004, 12:12 PM
SoxxoS SoxxoS is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tempe AZ during school, lombard IL in the summer
Posts: 6,669
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoney
Kenny Williams is really trying his damndest to run a solid organization while operating with a bottom-third payroll. In my opinion, he's doing it better than Ron Schueler ever did.
We don't have a bottom third payroll, not even close.
__________________
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/profile.php?do=editsignature

Freddie, how are you getting guys out?

"throwing a bunch of bull****."
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-16-2004, 04:32 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Chicago - South Loop
Posts: 2,877
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wealz
I can't find the article online though.

Williams, Shaffer, etc... should be held accountable for the deplorable state of our system.
Oh please. Baseball America ranked us as the number 1 organization in 2000 and look where those guys got us. Spare us the melodrama...
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-16-2004, 04:53 PM
Wealz Wealz is offline
WSI Personality
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 781
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdivaldi
Oh please. Baseball America ranked us as the number 1 organization in 2000 and look where those guys got us. Spare us the melodrama...
So being rated 29th out of 30 isn't a concern?
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-16-2004, 05:53 PM
rdivaldi rdivaldi is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Chicago - South Loop
Posts: 2,877
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wealz
So being rated 29th out of 30 isn't a concern?
No, it's not. Farm system rankings are for the most part meaningless. Sure it's nice to be ranked high, but that doesn't guarantee a thing.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-16-2004, 11:34 PM
OEO Magglio OEO Magglio is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,922
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wealz
So being rated 29th out of 30 isn't a concern?
No because these rankings are awful. They had the a's as the number one farm system in baseball and that's completely off. These rankings are dumb and far from the truth.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:16 PM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.