White Sox Interactive Forums
Sox Clubhouse
 Soxogram: 
Congratulations on the Rookie records for HR and RBI in April, Jose!

Welcome
Go Back   White Sox Interactive Forums > Baseball Discussions > Sox Clubhouse
Home Chat Stats Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-23-2013, 01:15 PM
doublem23's Avatar
doublem23 doublem23 is offline
MMXXIII
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Roscoe Village
Posts: 53,998
Blog Entries: 5
Default Sox Trade Possibilities, Part II

Continued from here:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/v...d.php?t=136510

Carry on...
__________________
2014 Obligatory Attendance & Record Tracker

0-5

LAST GAME: August 4 - Twins 16, Sox 3
NEXT GAME: I don't know, but I'll be sure to warn you when I know
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-23-2013, 01:38 PM
spawn's Avatar
spawn spawn is offline
Everybody's All-American
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: My Mother's Basement, Plainfield,Il.
Posts: 11,727
Blog Entries: 3
Default

regarding munchman's assessment. Over the top as usual! All I have to do is remember his assessment df Derrick Rose being a bust of epic proportions to show how much I value his opinion. I mean, can you imagine the Bulls now had they drafted Michael Beasley as munch wanted? But dude...continue your hysterically overly dramatic rant!
__________________


A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives- Jackie Robinson

www.twitter.com/Spawn_03
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-23-2013, 01:50 PM
blandman blandman is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,482
Default

Can someone, sanely, please answer how we are even as good as last year. A real answer. Not one that imagines improvement from Dayan, TCM, Beckham, and Flowers based on nothing. Not one that imagines Konerko didn't fall off a cliff in the second half last year. Seriously. How is this team going to score runs. We lost our most productive hitter from last year in AJ and Rios had a year way out of his career norm. And we're somehow going to improve? Improve? This team is not just worse, it's a lot worse than last year. That isn't an over the top assessment. Our everyday lineup includes Flowers, Viciedo, and Beckham, three guys who are likely to post an OPS+ of about 30 points under the league average for their respective positions. Our "core" on offense includes that guy that dropped off a cliff due to age and Adam freakin' Dunn. In what universe is this lineup competitive?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-23-2013, 01:53 PM
spawn's Avatar
spawn spawn is offline
Everybody's All-American
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: My Mother's Basement, Plainfield,Il.
Posts: 11,727
Blog Entries: 3
Default

Last year, a lot of "experts" picked the Sox to lose 90-95 games so...

I'll say what I said before the season started last year...I'll wait for them to, I don't know, actually play the games before declaring the season lost.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-23-2013, 01:55 PM
sullythered sullythered is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Oak Lawn, IL
Posts: 4,336
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Can someone, sanely, please answer how we are even as good as last year. A real answer. Not one that imagines improvement from Dayan, TCM, Beckham, and Flowers based on nothing. Not one that imagines Konerko didn't fall off a cliff in the second half last year. Seriously. How is this team going to score runs. We lost our most productive hitter from last year in AJ and Rios had a year way out of his career norm. And we're somehow going to improve? Improve? This team is not just worse, it's a lot worse than last year. That isn't an over the top assessment. Our everyday lineup includes Flowers, Viciedo, and Beckham, three guys who likely to post an OPS+ of about 30 points under the league average for their respective positions. Our "core" on offense includes that guy that dropped off a cliff due to age and Adam freakin' Dunn. In what universe is this lineup competitive?
Nobody has any idea if this team will be good or not. Just like last year. Until the big money comes off the books, they basically did what they could. That doesn't necessarily mean they will be better or worse than last year. There are players I look for improvement from (Reed, Santiago) and players I expect to perform to a lesser degree (Rios), but I have no idea what will happen. Neither do you.
__________________
And on the 8th day, God created churros.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-23-2013, 01:56 PM
SoxNation05 SoxNation05 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Palos Park
Posts: 1,713
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Can someone, sanely, please answer how we are even as good as last year. A real answer. Not one that imagines improvement from Dayan, TCM, Beckham, and Flowers based on nothing. Not one that imagines Konerko didn't fall off a cliff in the second half last year. Seriously. How is this team going to score runs. We lost our most productive hitter from last year in AJ and Rios had a year way out of his career norm. And we're somehow going to improve? Improve? This team is not just worse, it's a lot worse than last year. That isn't an over the top assessment. Our everyday lineup includes Flowers, Viciedo, and Beckham, three guys who are likely to post an OPS+ of about 30 points under the league average for their respective positions. Our "core" on offense includes that guy that dropped off a cliff due to age and Adam freakin' Dunn. In what universe is this lineup competitive?
John Danks.

The bullpen is better.

Reed should improve.

I personally think Viciedo and Beckham will get better at the plate.

Robin Ventura gaining a year experience.

We have two options at the #5 spot in the rotation rather than Phil Humber.

Keppinger is better than Morel and possibly better than Youkilis.

Rick Hahn has also said "we're not done" and Jerry Reinsdorf had said that our payroll still has flexibility.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-23-2013, 02:04 PM
blandman blandman is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,482
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sullythered View Post
Nobody has any idea if this team will be good or not. Just like last year. Until the big money comes off the books, they basically did what they could. That doesn't necessarily mean they will be better or worse than last year. There are players I look for improvement from (Reed, Santiago) and players I expect to perform to a lesser degree (Rios), but I have no idea what will happen. Neither do you.
Oh please. Yes no one can 100% predict the future, but there are things that are easy to assume.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoxNation05 View Post
John Danks.

The bullpen is better.

Reed should improve.

I personally think Viciedo and Beckham will get better at the plate.

Robin Ventura gaining a year experience.

We have two options at the #5 spot in the rotation rather than Phil Humber.

Keppinger is better than Morel and possibly better than Youkilis.

Rick Hahn has also said "we're not done" and Jerry Reinsdorf had said that our payroll still has flexibility.
The bullpen is better and Reed should improve are really the same thing. I don't think the bullpen was the problem last year though, and it's debatable how a better bullpen improves us.

I like our #5 options better than Humber. Keppinger is a better stick than Morel and probably Youklis, but he's even more of a defensive black hole than Youk was. And his addition does not compensate for AJ's loss.

John Danks probably won't be 100% this year, but even if he is our big problem is offense, of which we have very little.

Why do you think Beckham will get better at the plate? He's had over 1000 plate appearances and has only regressed.

I'm fairly confident Viciedo will not improve. At least not without more time in the minors and a completely reworked approach. His problem is that he has no batting eye at all, and coupling that with a long swing that doesn't make contact very often, he's a long way from being a piece that can contribute. The league figured him out pretty quickly. Why does it take our fanbase so long? These were things scouts have said about him all along...
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-23-2013, 02:09 PM
spawn's Avatar
spawn spawn is offline
Everybody's All-American
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: My Mother's Basement, Plainfield,Il.
Posts: 11,727
Blog Entries: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blandman View Post
I'm fairly confident Viciedo will not improve. At least not without more time in the minors and a completely reworked approach. His problem is that he has no batting eye at all, and coupling that with a long swing that doesn't make contact very often, he's a long way from being a piece that can contribute. The league figured him out pretty quickly. Why does it take our fanbase so long? These were things scouts have said about him all along...
You were fairly confident Derrick Rose would be a bust. How did that prediction turn out again?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-23-2013, 02:10 PM
sullythered sullythered is offline
WSI Church Elder
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Oak Lawn, IL
Posts: 4,336
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Oh please. Yes no one can 100% predict the future, but there are things that are easy to assume.
Of course we can't, but you speak in more absolutes than a damn Sith Lord. It's baseball, and it's not crazy to think the Sox can even compete. The Tigers are the paper favorites. But the Sox are the next best team in the division, on paper, and sometimes the dog wins the race. They are not the embarrassment of a team you seem to believe them to be.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-23-2013, 02:19 PM
dickallen15 dickallen15 is offline
WSI High Priest
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,906
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Oh please. Yes no one can 100% predict the future, but there are things that are easy to assume.



The bullpen is better and Reed should improve are really the same thing. I don't think the bullpen was the problem last year though, and it's debatable how a better bullpen improves us.

I like our #5 options better than Humber. Keppinger is a better stick than Morel and probably Youklis, but he's even more of a defensive black hole than Youk was. And his addition does not compensate for AJ's loss.

John Danks probably won't be 100% this year, but even if he is our big problem is offense, of which we have very little.

Why do you think Beckham will get better at the plate? He's had over 1000 plate appearances and has only regressed.

I'm fairly confident Viciedo will not improve. At least not without more time in the minors and a completely reworked approach. His problem is that he has no batting eye at all, and coupling that with a long swing that doesn't make contact very often, he's a long way from being a piece that can contribute. The league figured him out pretty quickly. Why does it take our fanbase so long? These were things scouts have said about him all along...
If you are confident Viciedo won't improve they might as well start manufacturing his All Star jersey now. You said the same thing about Derrick Rose. Beasley was only going to get better and better. You really seem to be a good sport about your statements, I will give you that, but I am not going to take your personal scouting reports too seriously.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-23-2013, 02:20 PM
spawn's Avatar
spawn spawn is offline
Everybody's All-American
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: My Mother's Basement, Plainfield,Il.
Posts: 11,727
Blog Entries: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Oh please. Yes no one can 100% predict the future, but there are things that are easy to assume.
Like Derrick Rose being a bust of epic proportions?

And yes, whenever you make ludicrous statements like this, Derrick Rose will appear. Like magic!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-23-2013, 02:23 PM
doublem23's Avatar
doublem23 doublem23 is offline
MMXXIII
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Roscoe Village
Posts: 53,998
Blog Entries: 5
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Keppinger is a better stick than Morel and probably Youklis, but he's even more of a defensive black hole than Youk was. And his addition does not compensate for AJ's loss.
For much of the 2nd half of last season, Youkilis was a statue, completely unable to move at 3B, basically watching every ball hit to the left side of the IF roll past him. Perhaps when his knee is not bothering him, Youk is a better defensive 3B than Keppinger, but I have a hard time believing Keppinger will be much of a defensive downgrade than what Youkilis was able to give the Sox.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-23-2013, 02:28 PM
spawn's Avatar
spawn spawn is offline
Everybody's All-American
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: My Mother's Basement, Plainfield,Il.
Posts: 11,727
Blog Entries: 3
Default

I find it amusing that munch cites losing AJ offensively will hurt this team, and in the same breath saying Rios hit outside of his norms and will regress. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't AJ just do the same thing? So you're saying Rios will regress offensively, but AJ won't? Not saying Rios won't regress. I'll wait until he starts swinging a bat to make that determination, but there is also no guarantee, had AJ re-signed, that he would duplicate his offensive production from last season.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-23-2013, 03:13 PM
SoxNation05 SoxNation05 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Palos Park
Posts: 1,713
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blandman View Post
Oh please. Yes no one can 100% predict the future, but there are things that are easy to assume.



The bullpen is better and Reed should improve are really the same thing. I don't think the bullpen was the problem last year though, and it's debatable how a better bullpen improves us.

I like our #5 options better than Humber. Keppinger is a better stick than Morel and probably Youklis, but he's even more of a defensive black hole than Youk was. And his addition does not compensate for AJ's loss.

John Danks probably won't be 100% this year, but even if he is our big problem is offense, of which we have very little.

Why do you think Beckham will get better at the plate? He's had over 1000 plate appearances and has only regressed.

I'm fairly confident Viciedo will not improve. At least not without more time in the minors and a completely reworked approach. His problem is that he has no batting eye at all, and coupling that with a long swing that doesn't make contact very often, he's a long way from being a piece that can contribute. The league figured him out pretty quickly. Why does it take our fanbase so long? These were things scouts have said about him all along...
Reed was a liability last year. The bullpen would be lights out and Reed would blow the game. Having a closer with an ERA at 4.75 is far from acceptable. I can see that ERA drop atleast a full run, with my guess having it be around 3.00.

How is having a better bullpen "debatable" to whether it helps us? Giving up less runs, increases chances of winning.

You know little about Danks progress so do not assume. Even if offense is our problem Danks returning to form will improve the team. Would you be opposed to picking up one of your beloved Tigers' starters because "offense is our problem"?

Beckham is someone I hold irrational hope for because I think one day he is going to get his swing back together. All indications show he is a hardworker and maybe a 2nd year with Manto can work out some of the fundamental kinks.

Viciedo's issues are all about approach, as you said. His approach is attrocious so any improvement would make his stats improve. The kid is only 23 though with one full season under his belt. In that season, Dayan hit 25 home runs and hit the ball to all fields. 25 home runs is a distinction only 39 hitters held. Power is not as easily had as it once was in this post steroid era. Give Viciedo time to develop discipline and watch that vicious, powerful swing produce.

Last edited by SoxNation05; 01-23-2013 at 03:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-23-2013, 02:06 PM
spawn's Avatar
spawn spawn is offline
Everybody's All-American
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: My Mother's Basement, Plainfield,Il.
Posts: 11,727
Blog Entries: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoxNation05 View Post
John Danks.

The bullpen is better.

Reed should improve.

I personally think Viciedo and Beckham will get better at the plate.

Robin Ventura gaining a year experience.

We have two options at the #5 spot in the rotation rather than Phil Humber.

Keppinger is better than Morel and possibly better than Youkilis.

Rick Hahn has also said "we're not done" and Jerry Reinsdorf had said that our payroll still has flexibility.
Well, the Tigers have 5 Cy Young candidates in their rotation, and their lineup makes the '27 Yankees Murders Row look like a little league team. With Gold Gloves at every position, I don't see how this Tigers team doesn't sweep the AL Central, the Playoffs, and finally the World Series!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:59 AM.




Design by: Michelle

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Site-specific editorial/photos Copyright ©2001 - 2008 White Sox Interactive. All rights reserved.